LittleNipper wrote:It seems from a Biblical perspective that God allows slavery with specific rules and conditions. The story of Abraham and Sarah is key to the birth of Christ. You don't seem to understand the Bible, and it seems odd to me that you do not see the importance of Abraham's and Sarah's mistake regarding Hagar. The fact is that your "father" (Ishmael) would not exist except for that error of human judgment.
First. the "Ishmael" that I use in my name is the Ishmael from the Book of Mormon, not the Old Testament. You should read it sometime it is almost as good a fictional story as is the Bible.
Second. Our original topic of conversation was on the virgin girls that were given to the lord as a tithe after his chosen people wiped out a city. I was asking you if god was cool with slavery. It had nothing to do with Abraham shagging his wife’s servant.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude
Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk - Tom Waits
The uniform Hebrew and Christian interpretation has been that verse Genesis 6:2 marks the breaking down of the separation between the godly line of Seth and the godless line of Cain
No, this isn't even close to the "uniform Hebrew and Christian interpretation." I've already linked you to numerous academic articles on the pericope, and all but one are authored by Jews or Christians. Your interpretation requires several basic presuppositions, including the univocality of the Bible and the non-existence of other deities. Both presuppositions are flatly rejected by the very text of the Bible, however, and they amount to nothing more than begging the question in the context of this particular question.
More of the same, only this time dressed up as if it were academic. I've provided actual scholarly discussion. When you take the time to review that literature, then you can try to engage the conversation on my level.
Does "your" academia believe that God created the entire universe in 6 days? Yes or No Does "your" academia believe that the FLOOD was global and lasted about a year? Yes or No Does "your" academia believe that God gave the land of Israel to the descendants of Abraham for all time? Yes or No Does "your" academia believe that Jesus was and is the Messiah and that He arose from the grave? Yes or No If the answer to any of the above is "NO," then your academia doesn't know the Creator and doesn't have a clue. Furthermore the term "Christian" means the following: The Greek word Χριστιανός (Christianos)—meaning "follower of Christ"—comes from Χριστός (Christos)—meaning "anointed one"—with an adjectival ending borrowed from Latin to denote adhering to, or even belonging to, as in slave ownership. In the Greek Septuagint, christos was used to translate the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Mašíaḥ, messiah), meaning "[one who is] anointed." In other European languages, equivalent words to 'Christian' are likewise derived from the Greek, such as 'Chrétien' in French and 'Cristiano' in Spanish.
LittleNipper wrote:It seems from a Biblical perspective that God allows slavery with specific rules and conditions. The story of Abraham and Sarah is key to the birth of Christ. You don't seem to understand the Bible, and it seems odd to me that you do not see the importance of Abraham's and Sarah's mistake regarding Hagar. The fact is that your "father" (Ishmael) would not exist except for that error of human judgment.
First. the "Ishmael" that I use in my name is the Ishmael from the Book of Mormon, not the Old Testament. You should read it sometime it is almost as good a fictional story as is the Bible.
Second. Our original topic of conversation was on the virgin girls that were given to the lord as a tithe after his chosen people wiped out a city. I was asking you if god was cool with slavery. It had nothing to do with Abraham shagging his wife’s servant.
Well, that Ishmael is not Biblical truth. God hates slavery and that is why Jesus came to set the captives free. The truth will set one free and not lies.
Deuteronomy 3:1-29 Next Moses & the Israelites headed for the land of Bashan, where King Og and his entire army attacked at Edrei. The Lord God handed King Og and all his people over, and the Israelites killed them all. Not a single person survived. They conquered all sixty of his towns—the entire Argob region in his kingdom of Bashan. Not a single town escaped conquest. These towns were all fortified with high walls and barred gates. Many unwalled villages were taken at the same time. The kingdom of Bashan was destroyed, just as they had destroyed King Sihon of Heshbon. They destroyed all the people in every town conquered—men, women, and children alike. They kept all the livestock for ourselves and took plunder from all the towns. The Israelites took the land of the two Amorite kings east of the Jordan River—all the way from the Arnon Gorge to Mount Hermon (Mount Hermon is called Sirion by the Sidonians, and the Amorites call it Senir). They now had conquered all the cities on the plateau and all Gilead and Bashan, as far as the towns of Salecah and Edrei, which were part of Og’s kingdom in Bashan (King Og of Bashan was the last survivor of the giant Rephaites. His bed was made of iron and was more than thirteen feet long and six feet wide. It can still be seen in the Ammonite city of Rabbah.)
When Israel took possession of this land, Moses gave to the tribes of Reuben and Gad the territory beyond Aroer along the Arnon Gorge, plus half of the hill country of Gilead with its towns. Then Moses gave the rest of Gilead and all of Bashan—Og’s former kingdom—to the half-tribe of Manasseh. (This entire Argob region of Bashan used to be known as the land of the Rephaites. Jair, a leader from the tribe of Manasseh, conquered the whole Argob region in Bashan, all the way to the border of the Geshurites and Maacathites. Jair renamed this region after himself, calling it the Towns of Jair, as it is still known at the time of this documentation.) Moses gave Gilead to the clan of Makir. But also part of Gilead was given to the tribes of Reuben and Gad. This entire area extended from the middle of the Arnon Gorge in the south to the Jabbok River on the Ammonite frontier. They also received the Jordan Valley, all the way from the Sea of Galilee down to the Dead Sea, with the Jordan River serving as the western boundary. To the east were the slopes of Pisgah.
All these fighting men were obligated to cross the Jordan ahead of their Israelite relatives, armed and ready to assist them. their wives, children, and numerous livestock, however, may stay behind in the towns given them. When the Lord has given security and occupancy to the rest of the Israelites, then they may all return to the land given
Moses now gave Joshua this charge: ‘You have seen for yourself everything the Lord your God has done to these two kings. He will do the same to all the kingdoms on the west side of the Jordan. Do not be afraid of the nations there, for the Lord your God will fight for you.’ Moses pleads with the Lord saying, ‘O Sovereign Lord, you have only begun to show your greatness and the strength of your hand to me, your servant. Is there any god in heaven or on earth who can perform such great and mighty deeds as you do? Please let me cross the Jordan to see the wonderful land on the other side, the beautiful hill country and the Lebanon mountains.’ But the Lord was angry with Moses because of Israel and would not listen. Moses was told to go up to Pisgah Peak, and look over the land in every direction. Moses may not cross the Jordan River. Moses is to commission Joshua and encourage and strengthen him, for he will lead the people across the Jordan. So they stayed in the valley near Beth-peor.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 `And we turn, and go up the way to Bashan, and Og king of Bashan cometh out to meet us, he and all his people, to battle, [to] Edrei.
2 `And Jehovah saith unto me, Fear him not, for into thy hand I have given him, and all his people, and his land, and thou hast done to him as thou hast done to Sihon king of the Amorite who is dwelling in Heshbon.
3 `And Jehovah our God giveth into our hands also Og king of Bashan, and all his people, and we smite him till there hath not been left to him a remnant;
4 and we capture all his cities at that time, there hath not been a city which we have not taken from them, sixty cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan.
5 All these [are] cities fenced with high walls, two-leaved doors and bar, apart from cities of villages very many;
6 and we devote them, as we have done to Sihon king of Heshbon, devoting every city, men, the women, and the infants;
7 and all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we have spoiled for ourselves.
8 `And we take, at that time, the land out of the hand of the two kings of the Amorite, which is beyond the Jordan, from the brook Arnon unto mount Hermon;
9 (Sidonians call Hermon, Sirion; and the Amorites call it Senir,)
10 all the cities of the plain, and all Gilead, and all Bashan, unto Salchah and Edrei, cities of the kingdom of Og in Bashan,
11 for only Og king of Bashan had been left of the remnant of the Rephaim; lo, his bedstead [is] a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the sons of Ammon? nine cubits its length, and four cubits its breadth, by the cubit of a man.
12 `And this land we have possessed, at that time; from Aroer, which [is] by the brook Arnon, and the half of mount Gilead, and its cities, I have given to the Reubenite, and to the Gadite;
13 and the rest of Gilead and all Bashan, the kingdom of Og, I have given to the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, to all that Bashan, called the land of Rephaim.
14 `Jair son of Manasseh hath taken all the region of Argob, unto the border of Geshuri, and Maachathi, and calleth them by his own name, Bashan-Havoth-Jair, unto this day.
15 And to Machir I have given Gilead.
16 `And to the Reubenite and to the Gadite I have given from Gilead even unto the brook Arnon, the middle of the valley and the border, even unto Jabbok the brook, the border of the sons of Ammon,
17 and the plain, and the Jordan, and the border, from Chinnereth even unto the sea of the plain, the salt sea, under the springs of Pisgah, at the [sun]-rising.
18 `And I command you, at that time, saying, Jehovah your God hath given to you this land to possess it; armed ye pass over before your brethren the sons of Israel, all the sons of might.
19 Only, your wives, and your infants, and your cattle -- I have known that ye have much cattle -- do dwell in your cities which I have given to you,
20 till that Jehovah give rest to your brethren like yourselves, and they also have possessed the land which Jehovah your God is giving to them beyond the Jordan, then ye have turned back each to his possession, which I have given to you.
21 `And Jehoshua I have commanded at that time, saying, Thine eyes are seeing all that which Jehovah your God hath done to these two kings -- so doth Jehovah to all the kingdoms whither thou are passing over;
22 fear them not, for Jehovah your God, He is fighting for you.
23 `And I entreat for grace unto Jehovah, at that time, saying,
24 Lord Jehovah, Thou -- Thou hast begun to shew Thy servant Thy greatness, and Thy strong hand; for who [is] a God in the heavens or in earth who doth according to Thy works, and according to Thy might?
25 Let me pass over, I pray Thee, and see the good land which [is] beyond the Jordan, this good hill-country, and Lebanon.
26 `And Jehovah sheweth himself wroth with me, for your sake, and hath not hearkened unto me, and Jehovah saith unto me, Enough for thee; add not to speak unto Me any more about this thing:
27 go up [to] the top of Pisgah, and lift up thine eyes westward, and northward, and southward, and eastward, and see with thine eyes -- for thou dost not pass over this Jordan;
28 and charge Jehoshua, and strengthen him, and harden him, for he doth pass over before this people, and he doth cause them to inherit the land which thou seest.
29 `And we dwell in a valley over-against Beth-Peor.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
LittleNipper wrote:Does "your" academia believe that God created the entire universe in 6 days? Yes or No Does "your" academia believe that the FLOOD was global and lasted about a year? Yes or No Does "your" academia believe that God gave the land of Israel to the descendants of Abraham for all time? Yes or No Does "your" academia believe that Jesus was and is the Messiah and that He arose from the grave? Yes or No If the answer to any of the above is "NO," then your academia doesn't know the Creator and doesn't have a clue.
More dogmatic nonsense. You can't expect to win an argument when you require your opponent already agree with all your claims. If you can't support any of the above claims with anything other than "because I/the Bible/God said/says so," then who do you think you're going to convince of anything here?
LittleNipper wrote:Furthermore the term "Christian" means the following: The Greek word Χριστιανός (Christianos)—meaning "follower of Christ"—comes from Χριστός (Christos)—meaning "anointed one"—with an adjectival ending borrowed from Latin to denote adhering to, or even belonging to, as in slave ownership. In the Greek Septuagint, christos was used to translate the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Mašíaḥ, messiah), meaning "[one who is] anointed." In other European languages, equivalent words to 'Christian' are likewise derived from the Greek, such as 'Chrétien' in French and 'Cristiano' in Spanish.
Yes, I know. I already explained this, only without the pedantic expansion that you seem to think is going to impress or even intimidate me.
LittleNipper wrote:Well, that Ishmael is not Biblical truth. God hates slavery and that is why Jesus came to set the captives free. The truth will set one free and not lies.
If god really hated slavery, why didn't just put it in the ten commandments? Seems he could have just added it in there with a quick swipe of his finger. "Thou shall not make slaves of they fellow human beings" or something like that.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude
Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk - Tom Waits
Not according to the Bible. It's promoted in both the Old and New Testaments.
Slavery is not promoted. Slavery is regulated. Nowhere in The Commandments does it say to make slaves of the heathen. It does not say to go and preach slavery. This is why most Protestants were against slave ownership and this ended slavery in England and finally the United States.