LDS Missionaries among the Homeless?

[_maklelan]

Mak, so, the Church spent 26 years worth of humanitarian aid on one shopping centre project in downtown Salt Lake City knowing it wasn't going to generate a return on the monies spent. Do you believe that Jesus Christ, the head of the Church, authorised that expenditure?

You're changing the subject.

[_maklelan]

My maths might be off, but it sure looks like 26 years........

That's an updated fact sheet. They've since taken down the original 1985-2009 fact sheet. You're right, it is 26 years, not 24.

(And in answer to your question, any money I have obtained from people under the guise of wanting it for charitable causes has been spent on exactly that, charitable causes. Every. Single. Penny. Not salaries, not stipends, not investment funds, not apartments, not big fancy houses, not first class flights, not chauffeurs, not thousand dollar suits, not shopping malls.)

You didn't tell me how much of your money you have contributed to charities. I didn't ask whether or not you've been an honest mediator of charity.

[Guest]

My maths might be off, but it sure looks like 26 years........

That's an updated fact sheet. They've since taken down the original 1985-2009 fact sheet. You're right, it is 26 years, not 24.

Thanks.
Where is it that you work again?

(And in answer to your question, any money I have obtained from people under the guise of wanting it for charitable causes has been spent on exactly that, charitable causes. Every. Single. Penny. Not salaries, not stipends, not investment funds, not apartments, not big fancy houses, not first class flights, not chauffeurs, not thousand dollar suits, not shopping malls.)

You didn't tell me how much of your money you have contributed to charities. I didn't ask whether or not you've been an honest mediator of charity.

I don't see why I would give you an answer to that?
(This is Mormon Discussions. If you wish to set up an online forum entitled "Bazooka Discussions" then feel free)

We are discussing how an Organisation claiming to be directed personally by Christ, that actively solicits (pressures?) donations from members on the basis that it is for "charity", expends those donations. The fact is that we don't know because those figures (except in countries where the law requires charities to disclose financial data) are secret.
So, have you been given an accounting of exactly how your tithing donations have been spent? Because the Prophet said:

REPORTER: In my country the...we say the people's churches, the Protestants, the Catholics, they publish all their budgets, to all the public.
HINCKLEY: Yeah. Yeah.
REPORTER: Why is it impossible for your church?
HINCKLEY: Well, we simply think that the...that information belongs to those who made the contribution, and not to the world. That's the only thing. Yes.

http://www.mormonthink.com/tithing.htm#secrecy

I asked my Bishop for an accounting, as per what the Prophet stated in public, of how my tithing donations had been distributed.
Five years later and I'm still waiting.
Why the secrecy?

Given that your salary (If I recall correctly you said you work at the COB) comes from out of the widows mite, perhaps you can give us an accounting of what it is you do in return for receiving your little slice of tithing monies. (I will understand if you do not wish to answer this, but if you can ask me personal questions, I get to ask them of you, right?)

[_maklelan]

How much have you personally donated since 1985 to feeding and clothing the needy in your own community? Whatever it is, you can increase it every day by making this website your home page.

The Hunger Site is not a charity; it is a for-profit corporation which donates the revenue from its advertising banner to selected charities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunger_Site

You're going to withhold charitable donations to hungry people around the world because Wikipedia claims they're not a "charity"? They're a legally registered NPO, and they've been investigated numerous times. 100% of the revenue they collect from the sponsors to which their donation buttons go goes to their charitable partners around the world. They pay overhead from the GreaterGood Retail ads, which are explicitly distinct from the ads associated with the donations.

Check it out on Snopes if you wish. Just saying you don't think it qualifies as a pure charity because Wikipedia says so is a pathetic excuse for not offering free charitable aid. Why don't you suck up your pride and just take this opportunity to do something good for the population of this earth instead of just arguing for the sake of arguing?

[_maklelan]

Thanks.
Where is it that you work again?

In the Church Office Building. If you'd like to actually address the claims I made associated with that statement, I'd be tickled pink. At this point you've just been dodging my main points to focus on marginal concerns. I acknowledged my error. I was basing my discussion off the original 2009 fact sheet, not off the updated one. My mistake. It doesn't really change anything. If you insist on pouncing on this perceived victory rather than remaining engaged on the actual topic, I have no interest in continuing.

I don't see why I would give you an answer to that?

Are you asking me or telling me? You pretend to speak from a moral and intellectual high ground, and yet your aversion to free charitable giving tells me you really don't have a grasp on this whole notion of philanthropy.

(This is Mormon Discussions. If you wish to set up an online forum entitled "Bazooka Discussions" then feel free)

In other words, you're happy to judge others based on a standard about which you refuse yourself to be open and honest.

We are discussing how an Organisation claiming to be directed personally by Christ, that actively solicits (pressures?) donations from members on the basis that it is for "charity", expends those donations. The fact is that we don't know because those figures (except in countries where the law requires charities to disclose financial data) are secret.

You certainly seem to be able to level a lot of judgments based on that lack of knowledge. Do you acknowledge yet that total welfare giving exceeds the number you've shared from the humanitarian aid fact sheet, or are you just glossing over that?

I asked for an accounting, as per what the Prophet stated in public, of how my tithing donations had been distributed. Five years later and I'm still waiting.
Why the secrecy?

I've been over this numerous times before. When the books were open, they were manipulated by some people for their own interests. The church closed them. They are audited every year internally and externally. Aside from that, they'd rather just deal with people like you bitching about them than subject their practices to further public manipulation. After all, people like you will always be bitching about something. That's never going to change no matter what they do.

[_maklelan]

[
Do you feel Jesus Christ personally authorised/agreed the expenditure on City Creek? Yes/No

What a petty and manipulative question. Can you guys be open and honest about anything?

[_Bazooka]

If you'd like to actually address the claims I made associated with that statement, I'd be tickled pink. At this point you've just been dodging my main points to focus on marginal concerns. I acknowledged my error. I was basing my discussion off the original 2009 fact sheet, not off the updated one. My mistake. It doesn't really change anything. If you insist on pouncing on this perceived victory rather than remaining engaged on the actual topic, I have no interest in continuing.

Yet the figure for the total humanitarian aid spend was the same amount.
You said 1985 - 2009 was 1.4 billion as per the 2009 fact sheet. I showed 1985 - 2011 was 1.4 billion as per the 2011 fact sheet.
There's something amiss somewhere.

Are you asking me or telling me? You pretend to speak from a moral and intellectual high ground, and yet your aversion to free charitable giving tells me you really don't have a grasp on this whole notion of philanthropy.

I don't speak from any moral or intellectual high ground. I'm merely holding the Church accountable for delivering to it's own stated standards to which it expects members to live up to. One being "honesty", two being "helping the poor and the needy". I'm merely showing that, in matters of financial expenditure, the Church seems to be asking members to "do as I say" rather than "do as I do".

In other words, you're happy to judge others based on a standard about which you refuse yourself to be open and honest.

I'm happy to judge the Church against standards set by the Church for members to live up to.

Do you acknowledge yet that total welfare giving exceeds the number you've shared from the humanitarian aid fact sheet, or are you just glossing over that?

Can you quantify how much "tithing" (or proceeds from invested tithing) has been used to help the poor and the needy in comparison to how much was spent on City Creek. Once we have those numbers I'll acknowledge what they tell us.

I've been over this numerous times before. When the books were open, they were manipulated by some people for their own interests. The church closed them. They are audited every year internally and externally. Aside from that, they'd rather just deal with people like you bitching about them than subject their practices to further public manipulation. After all, people like you will always be bitching about something. That's never going to change no matter what they do.

I didn't ask my Bishop for a full accounting.
I asked the Bishop to find out how the money I personally donated had been used.
That's all.
GBH stated that members could have access to that information.
Did he mislead me?

Also, can you provide some references showing where people manipulated the "open books" "for their own interests"?

[_Bazooka]

Do you feel Jesus Christ personally authorised/agreed the expenditure on City Creek? Yes/No

What a petty and manipulative question. Can you guys be open and honest about anything?

Is that a 'yes' or a 'no'?
Because, when you think about it, it's a pretty watershed question.

Is Christ leading the Church today? Yes? No?
If Christ is leading the Church today then, presumably, something as massive as spending billions of dollars of Church funds, would be something to run past Him for approval. At the very least I'm assuming the FP & PB prayed and got a good feeling about spending all that money on one small corner of Salt Lake City. Because if they didn't at least ask for Christ's approval then, well, where do we go from there?

It's a fair question to ask a member of the Church.
Your Church spent billions of dollars of donated funds (or the proceeds from investing donated funds) on a shopping mall and condo complex in Salt Lake City, do you believe that Jesus Christ, as head of the Church, personally authorised that expenditure? Yes/No.

[_maklelan]

Is that a 'yes' or a 'no'?
Because, when you think about it, it's a pretty watershed question.

Is Christ leading the Church today? Yes? No?
If Christ is leading the Church today then, presumably, something as massive as spending billions of dollars of Church funds, would be something to run past Him for approval. At the very least I'm assuming the FP & PB prayed and got a good feeling about spending all that money on one small corner of Salt Lake City. Because if they didn't at least ask for Christ's approval then, well, where do we go from there?

It's a fair question to ask a member of the Church.
Your Church spent billions of dollars of donated funds (or the proceeds from investing donated funds) on a shopping mall and condo complex in Salt Lake City, do you believe that Jesus Christ, as head of the Church, personally authorised that expenditure? Yes/No.

With your proclivity for trying to use questions to evade and distract from the actual issues, anyone with an objective thought in their brain can see why I would want to avoid openly manipulative questions. Trying to trap someone between an argument and a desire to appear orthodox or faithful is about the most sophomoric way I can think of to try to win a debate. Just address the facts and stop trying to play childish games.

Here's what you've led me to conclude so far: you misunderstood the scope of LDS charitable giving (and you're not afraid to flagrantly ignore it), you refuse to establish any kind of grounds for your presumed moral superiority, and you refuse to take 10 seconds to establish a mechanism that affords you the opportunity to donate food and money for free every single day. You're no philanthropist or philosopher, and you obviously don't genuinely care about the poor. You're just an angry person looking to feel better by denigrating a faith tradition and its adherents. Bravo.

[_Bazooka]

With your proclivity for trying to use questions to evade and distract from the actual issues....

Right back at ya.....