Restoration of the Gospel

[_The Erotic Apologist]

I would say that Martin Luther was a man who was highly emotional with regards to seeking to biblically save souls. Martin Luther saw non-acceptance of Christ, as the Messiah, as the manipulative work of Satan. And as such believed, and rightly so, that the unsaved Jew is living a lie and fully accepting traditions that are (of themselves) unable to save anyone. Luther saw that the Jew was without excuse with regard to the prophetic message of Christ found throughout the Old Testament. But, just like the Mormon, corrupted the Gospel message --- taking the focus off the Savior and redirected it towards keeping empty traditions, and exhorting prophets and personal philanthropy. Some Lutheran bodies also promote gay marriage. They have assumed the role of social clubs and have relieved themselves of the embarrassment the Gospel message brings with it. That embarrassment is that not everyone is saved and not all beliefs lead to heaven. It is faith in Jesus Christ plus NOTHING. And that leaves a lot of people out ---- including some Lutherians.

Nipper, what you're doing is called cherry picking.

In other words, you're focusing solely on Martin Luther's evangelical zeal while purposely ignoring the fact that his anti-Semitism helped lay the foundation for the Holocaust.

This is similar to those old, unrepentant Nazis who ignore the Holocaust and say Hitler should be praised because he solved Germany's unemployment crisis and made the trains run on time.

Nipper, do you agree with Martin Luther that the Jews should be punished?

[_huckelberry]

Erotic Apologist,
It sounded at least to my struggling ears that Nipper agreed with Luther in all things except that perhaps God will take care of the incineration so we do not need to get involved. I think it is highly likely Nipper could add that we should not get involved in such distruction.

Yet that leaves unanswered Luthers real concern about how a society like Jews who have such internal survival strength will continue to lead generation after generation after generation of innocent babies down the same path to destruction. Luther hoped such a holocaust would be stopped.

One thing about Luther, he never hid from his own thoughts.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

It sounded at least to my struggling ears that Nipper agreed with Luther in all things except that perhaps God will take care of the incineration so we do not need to get involved. I think it is highly likely Nipper could add that we should not get involved in such distruction.

No, Nipper does not deserve the benefit of the doubt, because if he did he would have addressed the "remedial actions" that Luther wanted to enact on the Jews:

• Jewish synagogues should be burned
• Jewish schools should be burned
• Houses owned by Jews should be burned
• The rubble left over from the burning of said synagogues, schools, and houses should be buried out of sight
• Jewish religious writings should be confiscated
• Rabbis should be forbidden to preach, and be executed if they do
• Safe conduct along roads for Jews should be abolished
• Jewish usury is to be prohibited upon pain of death
• Gold and silver owned by Jews should be confiscated by the state
• Jews should be put to work as agricultural salve laborers

Nipper also fails to address the fact that every one of Luther's "remedial actions" were put into effect by the Nazis, making Luther an intellectual father of Nazi anti-Semitism. And if that weren't bad enough, Nipper attempts--indirectly--to explain away any excesses Luther may have committed by saying he was "...highly emotional with regards to seeking to biblically save souls." According to Nipper, Luther was acting out of pure, Christ-like love when he called for the wholesale slaughter of the Jews.

Yes, you read that right, I'm accusing Luther of calling for the wholesale slaughter of the Jews--via civil execution, murder by highwaymen, starvation, or compulsory servitude. That's what it it all comes down to--stop being Jews and become Christians, or die in pain.

Yet that leaves unanswered Luthers real concern about how a society like Jews who have such internal survival strength will continue to lead generation after generation after generation of innocent babies down the same path to destruction.

In other words, we had to burn the village to save it.

Luther hoped such a holocaust would be stopped.

Wow, what an ironic choice of words.

In any case, you're completely missing the point--Luther would have rejoiced with equal fervor notwithstanding whether all the Jews became Christians or were all cremated in an oven, because either way god's will would have been done.

One thing about Luther, he never hid from his own thoughts.

Now that, I can agree with. Luther did not lack the courage of his convictions--unlike Nipper. The fact that Nipper so blatantly ignores Luther's anti-Semitism bespeaks cowardice. In that regard Nipper reminds me of the way Mormons used to ignore the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

[_huckelberry]

No, Nipper does not deserve the benefit of the doubt, because if he did he would have addressed the "remedial actions" that Luther wanted to enact on the Jews:

Luther hoped such a holocaust would be stopped.

Wow, what an ironic choice of words.

In any case, you're completely missing the point--Luther would have rejoiced with equal fervor notwithstanding whether all the Jews became Christians or were all cremated in an oven, because either way god's will would have been done.

"holocaust", well at least laid on that thick the irony was finally heard.

I did not have any interest in a benefit of the doubt. Skirting around the problem involved here with observations that we should let God do the judgment not us is pretty common since world war II.

The problem hardly centers on Luther. It is a fundamental problem of Christianity for the last 2000 years. It relates to all sorts of people in the world for whom Jews are a particularly sensitive example.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

"holocaust", well at least laid on that thick the irony was finally heard.

Well I guess we'll find out for sure if it was finally heard when Nipper shows up and apologizes for trying to marginalize Martin Luther's anti-Semitism.

I did not have any interest in a benefit of the doubt. Skirting around the problem involved here with observations that we should let God do the judgment not us is pretty common since world war II.

But it wasn't common before World War 2? Is that what you're implying?

I hope not, because you would be mistaken. In Western Europe (with the exception of Nazi Germany) violent, state-sanctioned anti-Semitism of the type preached by Martin Luther was as unacceptable before World War 2 as it was after World War 2. The Holocaust (with a capitol "H") began with Nazi Germany, and it ended with Nazi Germany...and for much of that we have Martin Luther to thank.

The problem hardly centers on Luther.

With respect, you are mistaken, because the prevailing scholarly consensus is that Martin Luther's anti-Semitic writings exerted a major and persistent influence on not only Nazi Germany, but also on the intervening generations between the Reformation and the Holocaust. (Yes, I'm paraphrasing Wikipedia, but in my defence I'd like to say that I've read about two thirds of the books cited in the Wikipedia article, and several books that weren't.)

I'll grant that anti-Semitism was a problem long before Martin Luther showed up, and that if Luther hadn't written On the Jews and their Lies someone else might have written a very similar book. But Luther's anti-Semitic screeds neither begin nor end with On the Jews and their Lies, and the sheer bulk of his anti-Semitic writings simply beggars the imagination. Furthermore, Luther's raw, earthy style elevated his anti-Semitic rants to a level of popularity that rivaled the Holy Bible. No, Luther did not invent anti-Semitism, but one can't deny that Luther laid the ideological groundwork for a new kind of state-sanctioned anti-Semitism on a horrific scale without parallel in modern history.

That being said, it boggles the mind how people like Nipper can claim Luther wrote what he wrote out of love for the Jews. I can only assume neither Nipper nor you have any Jewish relatives who lived in Europe during the Holocaust. Maybe if you did you wouldn't find it so easy to sweep Luther's anti-Semitism under the rug.

It is a fundamental problem of Christianity for the last 2000 years. It relates to all sorts of people in the world for whom Jews are a particularly sensitive example.

Sorry, but that sounds like a bit of a cop out. It's like you're saying: It's everybody's fault, therefore it's nobody's fault, including Martin Luther.

Here's a question--why didn't Yahweh (who is all-knowing and all-seeing) add one or two lines to the Bible saying, "Thou shalt not slaughter large numbers of Jews or other people on the basis of race or religion"? Is it because it would have clashed with all the times where Yahweh commands the Israelites to slaughter other tribes on the basis of their race and religion?

[_huckelberry]

Erotic Apologist
I come here ,post in agreement with you and you throw pig excrement at me. Go eat it yourself.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

I come here ,post in agreement with you and you throw pig excrement at me. Go eat it yourself.

Sorry about that. I clearly missed what you were getting at. I'll just have to plead insanity because so-called christians like Little Nipper with their sanctimonious hypocrisy really get on my nerves. Again, sorry for totally misinterpreting what you were saying.

As for Little Nipper, I eagerly await your response.

[_huckelberry]

I'll grant that anti-Semitism was a problem long before Martin Luther showed up, and that if Luther hadn't written On the Jews and their Lies someone else might have written a very similar book. But Luther's anti-Semitic screeds neither begin nor end with On the Jews and their Lies, and the sheer bulk of his anti-Semitic writings simply beggars the imagination. Furthermore, Luther's raw, earthy style elevated his anti-Semitic rants to a level of popularity that rivaled the Holy Bible. No, Luther did not invent anti-Semitism, but one can't deny that Luther laid the ideological groundwork for a new kind of state-sanctioned anti-Semitism on a horrific scale without parallel in modern history.

That being said, it boggles the mind how people like Nipper can claim Luther wrote what he wrote out of love for the Jews. I can only assume neither Nipper nor you have any Jewish relatives who lived in Europe during the Holocaust. Maybe if you did you wouldn't find it so easy to sweep Luther's anti-Semitism under the rug.


It's like you're saying: It's everybody's fault, therefore it's nobody's fault, including Martin Luther.

Following what you have stated here, Luther put an amplifier on a murderous dimension of Christian culture and beliefs. The Nazis put the amplified version into action so we can all see what it is. It is possible to focus on Luthers personal contribution to this situation.Is he just morally defective? It is possible to wonder if the decisions to kill multitudes of anabaptists created a moral insensitivity where more killing seemed a natural follow up. I hope I do not sound as if I approve of such a development. It is possible to wonder if Luthers invention of faith alone salvation contributed to this violence toward people we should instead love.In that view it might be thought that with out the right faith one has no grace and without grace humans lack love. One might wonder if his hard predestination contributed. I suspect these are peripheral to the basic view that non Christian are all going to hell. A falsehood destructive of the love God commands.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Following what you have stated here, Luther put an amplifier on a murderous dimension of Christian culture and beliefs. The Nazis put the amplified version into action so we can all see what it is. It is possible to focus on Luthers personal contribution to this situation.Is he just morally defective? It is possible to wonder if the decisions to kill multitudes of anabaptists created a moral insensitivity where more killing seemed a natural follow up. I hope I do not sound as if I approve of such a development. It is possible to wonder if Luthers invention of faith alone salvation contributed to this violence toward people we should instead love.In that view it might be thought that with out the right faith one has no grace and without grace humans lack love. One might wonder if his hard predestination contributed. I suspect these are peripheral to the basic view that non Christian are all going to hell. A falsehood destructive of the love God commands.

I found it very encouraging the other day when I read that the current pope said...

The Pope has struck a surprisingly conciliatory tone towards atheists and agnostics, saying that God will "forgive" them as long as they behave morally and live according to their consciences.(http://www.spiritdaily.com/A912popeagnostics.htm)

I look forward to the day when more faith-based organizations can follow the pope's lead and shift their focus away from dogma and more toward leading a just and moral life. This of course includes the LDS Church, of which I am still a member, and which named its law school after J. Reuben Clark, yet another strident anti-Semite. Even as a secular Mormon, the fact that a Mormon-owned law school is named after JRC is something I find deeply embarrassing.

[_Bazooka]

The EA,

The new Pope is proving to be remarkable in that he preaches do as I do.
General Authorities in the Mormon Church tend to preach do as I say.