Restoration of the Gospel

[_huckelberry]

I found it very encouraging the other day when I read that the current pope said...

The Pope has struck a surprisingly conciliatory tone towards atheists and agnostics, saying that God will "forgive" them as long as they behave morally and live according to their consciences.(http://www.spiritdaily.com/A912popeagnostics.htm)

I look forward to the day when more faith-based organizations can follow the pope's lead and shift their focus away from dogma and more toward leading a just and moral life.

I think that the Pope was referencing a point of view that has a strong presence in the Catholic church . It also has presence in other Christian churches. There are people in the Catholic Church, and other churches, who do not much care for such thinking. There are people who believe if they see Gods grace as only helping people with correct beliefs that they are preserving gospel purity and showing their own true faith.

My understanding is that the only true faith in Jesus is a persons journey to live a just and moral life. I feel sure that there are Jews with stronger faith than many Christians. I think there are Christians who polish their faith alone with more pharisetical enthusiasm than the original Pharisees who horrified Jesus.

[_huckelberry]

This thread started with question about the restoration which Mormons believe was necessary. It is not always spoken but I suspect few Mormons think of the idea of great apostasy without thinking of the violence which has infected the Christian church for most of its history. How can one review the horrors of violence towards people with beliefs considered wrong and not wish fervently for a new start without those horrors. People come to Mormons and say you are wrong and you should believe the Bible in the manner I do. Mormons look and somewhere see that history of monstrosities like dung spread over the Christians clothes. The Mormon moves away a few steps and holds even tighter to message of the LDS church which promises a new start leaving behind the works of Satan seen in the violence given to Jews, Africans, Indians, Protestants, Catholics, Anabaptists, Cathers, Albegensians, Pagans, witches, Monophesites, Arians, Nonarians, and Donatists etc.. That may not be a complete list , oh yes Mormons.

[_Gunnar]

Do Jews that do not accept Jesus as the Messiah go to hell? Frankly, I have to believe so --- as with anyone else. They do not even sacrifice as they were told they MUST to even be accepted according to Old Testament standards --- which I might add were only an outward sign of a supposed inward love of God and acceptance of Mercy/Salvation from God ALONE.

I simply cannot understand how any truly rational and compassionate person can take seriously so evil and stupid a concept.

I'm not sure which is stupider or more evil--that God would condemn anyone to an eternity of excruciating torture in hell merely for sincere disbelief (a punishment wildly disproportionate to anything that individual could possibly have committed during mortality), or that God could not forgive anyone for anything unless a totally innocent and sinless being is cruelly tortured to death to atone for everyone else's sins.

There is absolutely no way that I am ever going to believe in, much less worship, so stupid and cruelly sadistic a god.

One of the worst aspects of this religious concept is that there is a frighteningly narrow gap between believing a God that would do this to unbelievers and justifying helping God to expedite the process of sending unbelievers to Hell by executing them merely for their unbelief.

[_LittleNipper]

I have stated that I feel that Martin Luther was a human, and had weaknesses just like everyone else.

True-believing Mormons say the same thing when they try to excuse Joseph Smith's excesses...but Joseph Smith wasn't a violent anti-Semite, and he wasn't a Nazi, either.

I also believe that you are looking at his writings totally out of context and with the eyes of one clouded by gay marriage and abortion rights smothered with Nazi propaganda.

No--Martin Luther was an anti-Semite long before the Nazis showed up, and long before gay rights and abortion became an issue. Those are entirely separate matters. Stop trying to muddy the water.

Martin Luther lived at a different time and the world of his day was controlled by the Pope for the most part the Nazis believed that Jews were a race. Martin Luther would see the Jew from the aspect of one's religious beliefs only.

Completely irrelevant--again, you're simply trying to muddy the water. Nipper, you really need to sit down and read On the Jews and their Lies. And you need to stay on your meds.

As such, Luther saw the corruption of the Old Testament by the rabbinical interpretations and the confusion they brought along with them regarding the Bible.

Yeah, and Luther's solution to the problem was to call for the Jews to be put to death if they wouldn't convert to Christianity. Yeah, I got that. We've been over all of this already.

If I were to say, "You make me sick!" it would have nothing to do with becoming ill. It would have to do with you being a rake. That does not mean that you are to be found in a tool shed, it simply means that you like to stir things up and create mischief as a means of fun...

You mean Luther was only trying to have fun when he called for the mass slaughter of Jews who wouldn't join Jesus' fan club? You sound confused, Nipper, very confused.

I feel that Martin Luther was practicing unbridled freedom of speech unlike today.

Stop! Too funny! Yer killin' me! And I'm not even Jewish!

Was Luther correct?

No, and neither are you, Nipper.

I have to agree on much of what he said.

Yeah, that's becoming very clear--you think it's a good idea to say you want to kill people who won't convert to Christianity. Sick! Sick! Sick!

Could he have been more diplomatic? Yes, I feel he could have been.

Yeah, like the Nazis, who at least played nice, relaxing music for the Jews to listen to as they were herded into the gas chamber. Yeah, Luther should have been nice, like the Nazis.

Do Jews that do not accept Jesus as the Messiah go to hell? Frankly, I have to believe so --- as with anyone else. They do not even sacrifice as they were told they MUST to even be accepted according to Old Testament standards --- which I might add were only an outward sign of a supposed inward love of God and acceptance of Mercy/Salvation from God ALONE.

Yeah, which is why Martin Luther (and you) think it's a good idea to kill Jews who don't accept Christ. Like I said, we've been over this. Seek help, Nipper. Seek help, soon.

One more thing, Nipper--"Seek help!" and "Seig Heil!" might sound alike, but they're totally different.

Joseph Smith was violent or he would not have dressed in uniforms and been shot in a riot of his own making. Funny, the Nazis didn't want Creationism taught in their schools ---- and they controlled them ALL. I never said the Jews or male models who will not accept Christ should be killed. But you want religious thought excluded from the public educational forum. Isn't that a form of murder?

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Joseph Smith was violent or he would not have dressed in uniforms and been shot in a riot of his own making.

Yes--both Joseph Smith and Martin Luther had lots of really wacky ideas. It seems they both thought secret polygamy was a good idea, except Joseph Smith wasn't an embittered anti-Semite.

Funny, the Nazis didn't want Creationism taught in their schools ---- and they controlled them ALL.

No--your problem is that you're confusing National Socialism with secularism. They're not the same thing.

I never said the Jews or male models who will not accept Christ should be killed.

True, it was Martin Luther and not you who said Jews who don't join Jesus' fan club should be killed. But you seem to agree with Martin Luther in all things except that he should have been more "diplomatic" about wanting to slaughter Jews. That's not very nice, Nipper.

But you want religious thought excluded from the public educational forum. Isn't that a form of murder?

A) No, I do not want religious thought excluded from the public educational forum, and B) No, that's not a form of murder.

You sound a little confused, Nipper.

[_ZelphtheGreat]

The Priesthood was never lost from the Earth.

Four Apostles had it here since Jesus died.

The Three Nephites and John. Four with authority of the Apostles of Jesus Christ, so why was it 'restored' when it was here the whole time? Why didn't these four give it to Joseph Smith? Why don't any of the GA's ever mention these four in connection with Priesthood ordination and line of authority?

[_Bazooka]

The Priesthood was never lost from the Earth.

Four Apostles had it here since Jesus died.

The Three Nephites and John. Four with authority of the Apostles of Jesus Christ, so why was it 'restored' when it was here the whole time? Why didn't these four give it to Joseph Smith? Why don't any of the GA's ever mention these four in connection with Priesthood ordination and line of authority?

Yep, they're kind of inconvenient to the restoration narrative those four...

[_The Erotic Apologist]

The Priesthood was never lost from the Earth.

Four Apostles had it here since Jesus died.

The Three Nephites and John. Four with authority of the Apostles of Jesus Christ, so why was it 'restored' when it was here the whole time? Why didn't these four give it to Joseph Smith? Why don't any of the GA's ever mention these four in connection with Priesthood ordination and line of authority?

Yep, they're kind of inconvenient to the restoration narrative those four...

But they're pretty handy if you have a flat tire on a long, dark road.

[_Bazooka]

But they're pretty handy if you have a flat tire on a long, dark road.

And great for a weepy tale at the next Fast & Testimony meeting about how you found your car keys....

[_subgenius]

The Priesthood was never lost from the Earth.

Four Apostles had it here since Jesus died.

The Three Nephites and John. Four with authority of the Apostles of Jesus Christ, so why was it 'restored' when it was here the whole time? Why didn't these four give it to Joseph Smith? Why don't any of the GA's ever mention these four in connection with Priesthood ordination and line of authority?

Yep, they're kind of inconvenient to the restoration narrative those four...

How so?
I hold the Priesthood but am unable to just confer it upon anyone of my choosing.
I believe you will discover what the fullness of the priesthood is and how these "4" - while performing ministerial duties, did not possess the necessary keys...and therefore restoration became necessary.
Just as the quorum of the 12 hold keys as a quorum we see Peter, James, and John being commissioned...etc....yet those keys are unable to be exercised solo. Nevertheless, the real barrier was the emergence of the wickedness among mankind in general....etc..

it also seems necessary to realize that the 3 nephi and John are moved only to immortality through the resurrection. Once again, we witness you critics pick-and-choose when he wants to interpret scriptures literally or not.