Who's left?

[_mentalgymnast]

I'm not unaware of many of the issues and reasonings that have lead you, EA, Darth, and others, to the conclusions/outlook that you've come to. I would share many of those same views as a matter of FACT...if it wasn't for the "flip side" of the coin (and yes, some of that is probably cultural conditioning and "gut feelings" based on the same...) that tells me that there's something more than what I can SEE or REASON in regards to Christianity's story concerning God/Christ. Mormonism's coming on the scene at a time in world history where it makes a good fit into the world as it is and as it has been (Judeo-Christian principles/history) and where it seems to be going (yes, I know that is potentially more subjective than objective and again is AT LEAST conditioned on my own experience within my cultural mileu), is interesting, if not prophetic. There seems, to me, a LOT going for the church as it stands along other belief systems. There's some awesome theology/doctrine that has popped on the scene, albeit with a little help from the culture J.S. found himself a part of, since the restoration began in the 1800's.


Regards,
MG

Excellent post MG and forgive me for jumping on just one point but I do not see God restoring his Church in the 19th century America as a "good fit" at all. There seems no valid reason for God to send his only begotten to establish his Church only to let it fade from the earth for 1500+- years. Why would God allow such an apostasy, why would He allow it to go on for so long, and why reestablish it rural New York where it has struggled to even maintain its numbers against world population growth? The faithful answers to all these questions require some sort of ad hoc reasoning to justify more unexplainable actions by God.

What was wrong with all the people in all those other centuries and places that God did not consider restoring his one true church to them?

I would suggest it only seems a good fit because you happen to be part of it. For the vast majority of mankind it is just another blip on the ever changing religious scene.

I've considered that also. My thinking, from a faithful perspective, is that "God is big". Jesus brought a message of redemption and forgiveness/repentance, obedience to commandments, beatitudes, miracles, and arguably the teachings concerning resurrection/progression and everlasting/eternal life to the world. He then died and performed the act of atonement/first fruits of resurrection for mankind. He called folks to help him get the message out. And they did as best they could. And that was good enough for hundreds of years. Purposes of God were accomplished and men/women were able to achieve a certain amount of their "Christian" potential.

Ultimately, the world ended up with a large scale organization that was ingrained within the powerful political structures of the time. That message of Jesus/Christianity, atonement/resurrection, repentance, forgiveness, was promulgated far and wide through those structures. The creator/God was right there trying to nurture things along. How can we ever know how much GOOD was accomplished through out the ages as people accepted and lived according to the teachings of Jesus? Apostate or corrupted in some respects from a fullness (temple ordinances,etc.) of the gospel? Possibly so. But still a viable and important system of "God belief" that brought people to a place where they worshiped God and Jesus Christ...and Mary and the saints for good measure . I suppose an alternative to the way things seemed to pan out (early Christianity and it's evolution into a diluted/impure form) would be God/Christ not doing or saying ANYTHING during the period of earth's history that we refer to as the meridian of time, and just wait...la la la la la... until the world was ready for a "fullness" of truth/gospel practice/authority to be restored...but would that time ever have come if there wasn't a template precursor of Christian belief and practice already in place in a significantly large area of the earth with large numbers of Christians engaged in the practice/system of beliefs having to do with a resurrected Christ and the other things I've mentioned?

Regards,
MG

[_Sethbag]

You obviously put a lot of thought into finding ways to keep believing that the church you happen to belong to really is true.

You are indeed a mental gymnast.

You're wrong about the church, though. It's obviously not true.

[_Fence Sitter]

I suppose an alternative to the way things seemed to pan out (early Christianity and it's evolution into a diluted/impure form) would be God/Christ not doing or saying ANYTHING during the period of earth's history that we refer to as the meridian of time, and just wait...la la la la la... until the world was ready for a "fullness" of truth/gospel practice/authority to be restored...but would that time ever have come if there wasn't a template precursor of Christian belief and practice already in place in a significantly large area of the earth with large numbers of Christians engaged in the practice/system of beliefs having to do with a resurrected Christ and the other things I've mentioned?

Regards,
MG

I see no evidence that the world is any more ready for a restoration at this time than at any other and, in fact, if you ask many Christians it seems the world is worse off now (an opinion I do not share) than at any other time.

Clearly, given the lack of success, the LDS Church has had converting even Christians to His one true gospel and the abysmal retention rate the LDS Church has with its own converts, God has once again misjudged the timing of establishing His Church on earth. Nearly 200 years after restoring His Church only 1 in a 1000 people even identify as members. if this is the 'fullness of times" God sure isn't getting the message out very well.

[_ZelphtheGreat]

Gawrsh fellas. I'm absolutely tickled at this highest of honors you have bestowed upon me; that you respect and fear me so much that you apply some of your worst invective in order to try and poison the well against me.

Thank you. Thank you one and all. Keep checking those children (let us know when you have real evidence for the existence of horny 'ol Joe) and perhaps one day you'll find a reasonable excuse for good 'ol Willy Law to have been chased down the street out by the high society and academia of Boston in defense of the Mormons.

:biggrin:

With the 'commandment' being to raise righteous seed - where are the children of Josephs 33 'marriages'?

In fact, how come nearly all the polygamous 'marriages' produced fewer children per wife than those of single partner marriages?

God phucked up in making the commandment or the saints were shooting blanks or using birth control?

[Guest]

I suppose an alternative to the way things seemed to pan out (early Christianity and it's evolution into a diluted/impure form) would be God/Christ not doing or saying ANYTHING during the period of earth's history that we refer to as the meridian of time, and just wait...la la la la la... until the world was ready for a "fullness" of truth/gospel practice/authority to be restored...but would that time ever have come if there wasn't a template precursor of Christian belief and practice already in place in a significantly large area of the earth with large numbers of Christians engaged in the practice/system of beliefs having to do with a resurrected Christ and the other things I've mentioned?

Regards,
MG

I see no evidence that the world is any more ready for a restoration at this time than at any other and, in fact, if you ask many Christians it seems the world is worse off now (an opinion I do not share) than at any other time.

Clearly, given the lack of success, the LDS Church has had converting even Christians to His one true gospel and the abysmal retention rate the LDS Church has with its own converts, God has once again misjudged the timing of establishing His Church on earth. Nearly 200 years after restoring His Church only 1 in a 1000 people even identify as members. if this is the 'fullness of times" God sure isn't getting the message out very well.

Straight is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it. That's a "given" which has been around for a long time. I think you can find it in the New Testament somewhere. Seems to be the way things always have been and always will be. Not a reason to trash the restoration by any means.

Regards,
MG

[_Fence Sitter]

Straight is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it. That's a "given" which has been around for along time. I think you can find it in the New Testament somewhere. Seems to be the way things always have been and always will be. Not a reason to trash the restoration by any means.

Regards,
MG

Exactly, when leads us back to my original response. Nothing about the time frame and location of the restoration set it apart from any other location or era. There is nothing that defines it as "a good fit" therefore it is not evidence to be used for the truthfulness of the LDS gospel.

By the way, I also find it troubling to think of a God that accepts that only a few will find and accept his message. This sort of reasoning sound more like someone shoring up his/her belief that somehow God thinks he/she is more important than the vast majority of the rest of God's sons and daughters.

Every religion thinks they are God's chosen people.

[_Sethbag]

Aren't you really lucky, then, that you get to be that 1 in 1000 people who just happen to belong to the really true church?

I mean, it's almost like you won the church lottery or something. Just imagine all the other 999 people who think their beliefs are the correct ones, but who are all wrong. It's almost unbelievable!

Maybe you should play the lottery, or go to Vegas!

[_mentalgymnast]

You obviously put a lot of thought into finding ways to keep believing that the church you happen to belong to really is true.

You are indeed a mental gymnast.

You're wrong about the church, though. It's obviously not true.

If truth is knowledge of things as they are, as they were, and as they are to come...how can you know that your statement is true? It seems to me that the breadth and depth of any one person's life can only give information and/or experience that is relevant to the "as they are" portion of "truth". Even at that, one's own views may be distorted for one reason or another...we see through a glass darkly. We may even create an illusion that we think is true, but it's not. And YOU know the "rest of the story" in regards to things as they were and as they are to come?

Simply amazing!

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Aren't you really lucky, then, that you get to be that 1 in 1000 people who just happen to belong to the really true church?

I mean, it's almost like you won the church lottery or something. Just imagine all the other 999 people who think their beliefs are the correct ones, but who are all wrong. It's almost unbelievable!

Maybe you should play the lottery, or go to Vegas!

It is what it is. Everyone plays/beats the odds relationally in regards to the conditions in which they find themselves. It would be interesting to be able to go behind the scenes and see how the tables are set up and the decks are stacked and whether there are winners and losers...or just players that all have something to gain.

Celebrities in sports, entertainment, politics, and what have you, didn't just "get there". There was some kind of price to pay to get to their exalted station. Yet from the outside looking in wouldn't we say that "they're really lucky"?

Did you, me, others do something, pay a price, or not...to find ourselves where we do, or is it all random chance based on genetic drift and superior and/or inferior genes?

It is what it is. Beating the odds isn't a valid argument against anything. Neither is number inflation.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

By the way, I also find it troubling to think of a God that accepts that only a few will find and accept his message. This sort of reasoning sound more like someone shoring up his/her belief that somehow God thinks he/she is more important than the vast majority of the rest of God's sons and daughters.

Every religion thinks they are God's chosen people.

I think it comes down to find, accept,and LIVE his message. When you consider the covenants that are made and the time constraints and requirements in callings, family history, temple work and attendance, and other work loads/sacrifices (tithing and offerings, etc.) that are part of being a disciple of Jesus in the LDS Church, there are a lot of folks that may not want to go that far down/along the road of discipleship. And that's fine. It's not like God doesn't love all the folks that don't take the LDS route. He has blessings/opportunities in store for them also.

All religions are composed of God's chosen people. Chosen for various missions/purposes that are unique to them, collectively and individually. God's distinction with the LDS Church is that it is the only church in which he is "well pleased". Not that he isn't pleased with others and the good works/faith that they are engaged in.

Granted, the LDS Church is chosen in the sense that it holds certain keys of authority that other churches don't have. Custodial responsibilities for temple work, for example.

Regards,
MG