Facsimile 1 Knife in Hand

[_Themis]

I did. He said the drawing Joseph did is complete bollocks.

It's clear the knife does not match up, but I suspect the apologetic will be that Joseph knew a knife was supposed to be there but the person who prepared the image for print did not get it exactly right. What it does show is that the piece missing from the papyri was missing when Joseph had it. I agree that it is a big piece of evidence against Joseph's claims, but actual text that can be easily translated is even bigger, and we have that. Joseph gets it correct as I would expect anyone who doesn't know Egyptian would get it right. Funny how apologists tend to run away from these topics.

[_bcuzbcuz]

I did. He said the drawing Joseph did is complete bollocks.

It's clear the knife does not match up, but I suspect the apologetic will be that Joseph knew a knife was supposed to be there but the person who prepared the image for print did not get it exactly right. What it does show is that the piece missing from the papyri was missing when Joseph had it. I agree that it is a big piece of evidence against Joseph's claims, but actual text that can be easily translated is even bigger, and we have that. Joseph gets it correct as I would expect anyone who doesn't know Egyptian would get it right. Funny how apologists tend to run away from these topics.

It all adds up, or should I say, subtracts from the total. Joseph claimed inspiration in finding meaning where there was none. His additions to the drawings detract from the actual message. He got the knife wrong. He got the head wrong for the priest, even got the head wrong for the bird. He found the name Abraham when the text says nothing about Abraham. He made up fictional names for the canopic jars beneath the bed.

He probably knew he was "taking everyone for a ride" when he made up the "translation" for the text, if he wasn't totally self-delusional. It's hard to say if a con-man, cons himself as well. Joseph mis-guessed the date for the texts by more than a thousand years. Joseph didn't get a single detail correct.

If someone proclaims himself as a prophet for god and then reality knocks them back with minus, minus, minus, minus, what does that all add up to? I see over on the MDDB site that the current push is to accept that even God's chosen can make mistakes.

[_Themis]

It all adds up, or should I say, subtracts from the total. Joseph claimed inspiration in finding meaning where there was none. His additions to the drawings detract from the actual message. He got the knife wrong. He got the head wrong for the priest, even got the head wrong for the bird. He found the name Abraham when the text says nothing about Abraham. He made up fictional names for the canopic jars beneath the bed.

He probably knew he was "taking everyone for a ride" when he made up the "translation" for the text, if he wasn't totally self-delusional. It's hard to say if a con-man, cons himself as well. Joseph mis-guessed the date for the texts by more than a thousand years. Joseph didn't get a single detail correct.

If someone proclaims himself as a prophet for god and then reality knocks them back with minus, minus, minus, minus, what does that all add up to? I see over on the MDDB site that the current push is to accept that even God's chosen can make mistakes.

It's very clear to everyone knowledge about these issues outside of Mormonism and many inside that Joseph was making it up or very delusional. Joseph took advantage of others to gain money, fame, sex, etc. Religion is one of the best ways to do this, and possibly the best way to be remembered long after you are dead if successful. How long will L Ron Hubbard be remembered?

[_Spanner]

I suggest you don't look for a knife then. However, it is widely held by those who claim belief in the Book of Abraham, that the unholy priest is holding a knife over the struggling Abraham.

My question relates to anyone interested in looking for comparisons, that a knife is not what priests hold in their hands, as depicted by the common Books of the Dead, because the person is already dead.

The only person shown, by the way, with legs apart, in the book of the dead, is the shadow, usually black in portrayal and with legs demonstrating action, because, as we know, a shadow never sits still for anything.

Joseph didn't draw in the legs though. They are apart in the original. I have seen apologists claim that this proves it is Abraham (struggling) and not Osiris, as Osiris is usually mummified. However, there are indeed some images showing Osiris waking and moving his legs:



Nibley was aware of this, so I don't know why apologists still trot this one out:


ETA: I know you said "in the book of the dead", but I don't think source matters as the claim is that the papyrus is the Book of Abraham. The cult of Osiris was a mystery religion (like Mormonism) so some images may be less frequently depicted - the wakening Osiris pictures above come from inner temple walls. I have no idea how frequently the wakening Osiris was depicted on funerary scrolls. The point is that the moving legs are known to depict an awakening Osiris, and are not evidence that the image is of Abraham struggling with his attackers.

[_Shulem]

The point is that the moving legs are known to depict an awakening Osiris, and are not evidence that the image is of Abraham struggling with his attackers.

Yeah, the church institute lies about the spread legs supposedly being an idication that it's Abraham kicking about. But in reality it's a standard Egyptian convention in showing Osiris in the rising state. The same is true for the Facsimile No. 1. It's not Abraham kicking about but Osiris rising. And I can prove that this is pagan Egyptian funerary literature. Just read the writing surrounding the lion couch!



Paul O

[_bcuzbcuz]

I suggest you don't look for a knife then. However, it is widely held by those who claim belief in the Book of Abraham, that the unholy priest is holding a knife over the struggling Abraham.

My question relates to anyone interested in looking for comparisons, that a knife is not what priests hold in their hands, as depicted by the common Books of the Dead, because the person is already dead.

The only person shown, by the way, with legs apart, in the book of the dead, is the shadow, usually black in portrayal and with legs demonstrating action, because, as we know, a shadow never sits still for anything.

Joseph didn't draw in the legs though. They are apart in the original. I have seen apologists claim that this proves it is Abraham (struggling) and not Osiris, as Osiris is usually mummified. However, there are indeed some images showing Osiris waking and moving his legs:



Nibley was aware of this, so I don't know why apologists still trot this one out:


ETA: I know you said "in the book of the dead", but I don't think source matters as the claim is that the papyrus is the Book of Abraham. The cult of Osiris was a mystery religion (like Mormonism) so some images may be less frequently depicted - the wakening Osiris pictures above come from inner temple walls. I have no idea how frequently the wakening Osiris was depicted on funerary scrolls. The point is that the moving legs are known to depict an awakening Osiris, and are not evidence that the image is of Abraham struggling with his attackers.

Interesting point. I had forgotten entirely about the Osiris cult and the possibility of their portrayal being somewhat different. I'll have to do more study.

What is sure is that the figure is not Abraham.

[_Spanner]

It is a pity we can never know what the original picture was. I can only imagine what the Book of Abraham would read like had the picture been similar to this:



If I recall correctly, at least one Egyptologist thought that the portion of Fac 1 recreated as Osiris' upper hand is actually the tip of a bird wing, while Osiris' hand would actually be holding his golden replacement body part, something like this:



Or maybe Joseph wasn't trying to draw a knife after all

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Or maybe Joseph wasn't trying to draw a knife after all

I believe that would be the flaming sword Joseph was so fond of.

[_bcuzbcuz]

It is a pity we can never know what the original picture was. I can only imagine what the Book of Abraham would read like had the picture been similar to this:



If I recall correctly, at least one Egyptologist thought that the portion of Fac 1 recreated as Osiris' upper hand is actually the tip of a bird wing, while Osiris' hand would actually be holding his golden replacement body part, something like this:



Or maybe Joseph wasn't trying to draw a knife after all

Joseph was brilliant, without even knowing it. And, regrettably, semigenius was right. The priest (Anubis) IS actually holding a knife!

http://www.academia.edu/300384/IN_SEARC ... IS_TO_MATE

"IN SEARCH OF THE LOST PHALLUS: ON THE NEED FOR ISIS TO MATE
«With my lap filled with flowers and my hair full of perfumes
I will be like a lady of Two Lands close to you, my beloved!»
PAULO MENDES PINTO
Universidade Lusófona, Lisboa
0. A literary (pre)text
Papyrus Harris 500 1
Let us start far from Egypt. It is said that D. João V, king of Portugal, had some problems in having a legitimate son. To overcome that problem he was told he should make a promise: to build a great convent. The result was a majestic construction in Mafra. José Saramago, in Memorial do Convento, writes about the night in which the monarch, aroused by the information that the promise would solve everything, went to the Queen’s chambers to fulfil his marital duties. The next transcription is the brief text which corresponds already to the writer’s commentary after the royal sexual act.
«Different smells hover in the heavy atmosphere, one of which we easily identify, once without what smells there are no possible miracles, as the one expected at this time, for the other so talked about and incorporeal fecundation happened once and without equal, only to be known that God, when he so desires, does not need men although He cannot do without women.»
Leaving Saramago resting in our memories, let us look now to the myth around Osiris death.
1 Love poem published by SOUSA, Rogério Ferreira de in Os Doces Versos. Os poemas de Amor no Antigo Egipto, [Fafe], Labirinto, 2001, p.115.
466

. The source: the myth of Osiris death
Osiris, the first born child of Geb and Nut, was the undisputed, civilizing and loved monarch of Egypt. His brother Seth, with envy, intended to occupy his place and he set a strategy to reach it: after making him go away from Egypt, on his way back Seth invited him to a banquet. In the banquet Seth presented him a beautiful box, made exactly with Osiris measures, which would be given as an award to the person who would fit in it exactly. To the resemblance of Cinderella’s slipper, everybody tried it but it only fit Osiris to perfection. At that exact moment the box is closed, sealed and thrown to the river so that it would go to the sea and disappear. This sailing sarcophagus ran ashore to Biblos. Isis, the dedicated wife, sets a search to find the box sent ashore and manages to bring the sarcophagus back. Once Seth finds out the return of Osiris body, he cuts it: he quarters it in 14 pieces and throws them to the Nile.
Several cities claimed to have parts of Osiris body, some times even the same parts, in an attempt to overcome each other, which reminds us the phenomena of the relics in medieval Europe.
In the search set by Isis and her sister Neftis, they will manage to recover all body parts except one: the penis which had been eaten by a fish, oxirinc.
In possession of a powerful magic, Isis with the mummified body of her deceased husband through the art of Anubis, will substitute the missing penis by some green stalks or by clay; and represented many times in this act as a hawk, she will copulate with the deceased husband through this missing penis, giving birth to their firstborn son who will become king of the world.

(The picturing of this copula, one with Íris flying over the phallus and another with the goddess perching on the penis is seen for example in the temple of Seti I in Abidos and in Filae – both reproduced by SALES, José das Candeias in his work As Divindades Egípcias: Uma chave para a compreensão do Egipto Antigo, Lisboa: Editorial Estampa 1999, pp.126 e 127.)"

The priest is holding a knife in order to operate on Osiris' newly replaced body part. This body part, fully erect, would, of course, been uncircumcised. The priest will make a few delicate slashes to "clean him up". Ouch

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_iRE1f7T37Zk/S ... abra_4.gif

[_The Erotic Apologist]

In possession of a powerful magic, Isis with the mummified body of her deceased husband through the art of Anubis, will substitute the missing penis by some green stalks or by clay; and represented many times in this act as a hawk, she will copulate with the deceased husband through this missing penis, giving birth to their firstborn son who will become king of the world.

According to the Christ Myth, Jesus was likewise conceived in an act of copulation involving an absent penis. Jesus was also a firstborn son who likewise went on to become a king of kings.