The Book of Romans the LDS refuse to heed

[_Bazooka]

Well, I think I nailed it accurately. He tends to jump around like a box of frogs, changing the subject, introducing tangents, and then projects his own discussion shortcomings on others. It's like trying to gather smoke in a bucket.

like trying to herd cats

[_subgenius]

Well for starters, I did not say that the gift of prophesy was no longer around...only the need for prophets in the way Mormons claim since believers have the Holy Spirit to discern and a Savior who is their advocate in the presence of the Father. How does a so-called prophet Trump that? All Old Testament covenants are fulfilled in Christ and the New Covenant.

aside from you stating that the 10 Commandments are no longer in force, i would ask that you re-visit the definition of a prophet.

Yet, still no indication, or support, for your promotion of what seems now to be a position of Cessationism....

[_Albion]

Well for starters, I did not say that the gift of prophesy was no longer around...only the need for prophets in the way Mormons claim since believers have the Holy Spirit to discern and a Savior who is their advocate in the presence of the Father. How does a so-called prophet Trump that? All Old Testament covenants are fulfilled in Christ and the New Covenant.

aside from you stating that the 10 Commandments are no longer in force, i would ask that you re-visit the definition of a prophet.

Yet, still no indication, or support, for your promotion of what seems now to be a position of Cessationism....

Before I comment on anything perhaps you can give me the quote where I said "the ten commandments are no longer in force". To save you time checking, what I did say was that Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets as clearly stated in scripture...the first part being confirmed out of his own lips. The "law" was made up of hundreds of different commands of which the well known ten, essentially timeless spiritual laws, are only a part.

[_Bazooka]

aside from you stating that the 10 Commandments are no longer in force....

Before I comment on anything perhaps you can give me the quote where I said "the ten commandments are no longer in force".

It's worth pointing out that there's a technical glitch with subgenius's IP because, with alarming frequency, there is a significant disparity between what a poster posts and that which subgenus reads.

[_subgenius]

Before I comment on anything perhaps you can give me the quote where I said "the ten commandments are no longer in force". To save you time checking, what I did say was that Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets as clearly stated in scripture...the first part being confirmed out of his own lips. The "law" was made up of hundreds of different commands of which the well known ten, essentially timeless spiritual laws, are only a part.

where? why in the following links, that where.

I specifically asked:

"...how do resolve the "fulfilmment" of the Abrahamic Covenant, The Land Covenant, Davidic Covenant, and the Mosaic Covenant?""

to which you specifically responded:

"All Old Testament covenants are fulfilled in Christ and the New Covenant." (emphasis mine)

So, what is the Mosaic Covenant? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_covenant

"The Mosaic Covenant (named after Moses), also known as the Sinaitic Covenant (named after the biblical Mount Sinai), refers to a biblical covenant between God and the biblical Israelites, including their proselytes. The establishment and stipulations of the Mosaic Covenant are recorded in the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, which are traditionally attributed to Mosaic authorship and collectively called the Torah, and this covenant is sometimes also referred to as the Law of Moses or Mosaic Law or the 613 Mitzvot.

Oh, i see...the Mosaic Covenant is expressed by the Mosaic Law... (spoiler alert note "Sinai" above)

So, what is the Mosaic Law? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Mos ... of_the_Law

"The content of the Law is spread among the books of Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, and then reiterated and added to in Deuteronomy (deutero-nomy is Latinised Greek for "Second reading of the Law"). This includes:

the Ten Commandments
Moral laws - on murder, theft, honesty, adultery, etc.
Social laws - on property, inheritance, marriage and divorce,
Food laws - on what is clean and unclean, on cooking and storing food.
Purity laws - on menstruation, seminal emissions, skin disease and mildew, etc.
Feasts - the Day of Atonement, Passover, Feast of Tabernacles, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Feast of Weeks etc.
Sacrifices and offerings - the sin offering, burnt offering, whole offering, heave offering, Passover sacrifice, meal offering, wave offering, peace offering, drink offering, thank offering, dough offering, incense offering, red heifer, scapegoat, first fruits, etc.
Instructions for the priesthood and the high priest including tithes.
Instructions regarding the Tabernacle, and which were later applied to the Temple in Jerusalem, including those concerning the Holy of Holies containing the Ark of the Covenant (in which were the tablets of the law, Aaron's rod, the manna). Instructions and for the construction of various altars.
Forward looking instructions for time when Israel would demand a king.
Instructions for Proselytes and the Noahide Laws."


What?!?!?

The 10 commandments are part of the Mosaic Law, which means they are part of the Mosaic Covenant....which means they were fulfilled by Christ and thus no longer apply....thanks Albion, you just freed up my schedule.

[_subgenius]

aside from you stating that the 10 Commandments are no longer in force....

Before I comment on anything perhaps you can give me the quote where I said "the ten commandments are no longer in force".

It's worth pointing out that there's a technical glitch with subgenius's IP because, with alarming frequency, there is a significant disparity between what a poster posts and that which subgenus reads.

turns out it was not a glitch at all...just another case of you actually not reading...posts or scriptures.
But just in case there is a glitch with posts actualy appearing before your eyes....
viewtopic.php?p=771593#p771593

[_Albion]

Before I comment on anything perhaps you can give me the quote where I said "the ten commandments are no longer in force". To save you time checking, what I did say was that Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets as clearly stated in scripture...the first part being confirmed out of his own lips. The "law" was made up of hundreds of different commands of which the well known ten, essentially timeless spiritual laws, are only a part.

where? why in the following links, that where.

I specifically asked:

"...how do resolve the "fulfilmment" of the Abrahamic Covenant, The Land Covenant, Davidic Covenant, and the Mosaic Covenant?""

to which you specifically responded:

"All Old Testament covenants are fulfilled in Christ and the New Covenant." (emphasis mine)

So, what is the Mosaic Covenant? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_covenant

"The Mosaic Covenant (named after Moses), also known as the Sinaitic Covenant (named after the biblical Mount Sinai), refers to a biblical covenant between God and the biblical Israelites, including their proselytes. The establishment and stipulations of the Mosaic Covenant are recorded in the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, which are traditionally attributed to Mosaic authorship and collectively called the Torah, and this covenant is sometimes also referred to as the Law of Moses or Mosaic Law or the 613 Mitzvot.

Oh, i see...the Mosaic Covenant is expressed by the Mosaic Law... (spoiler alert note "Sinai" above)

So, what is the Mosaic Law? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Mos ... of_the_Law

"The content of the Law is spread among the books of Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, and then reiterated and added to in Deuteronomy (deutero-nomy is Latinised Greek for "Second reading of the Law"). This includes:

the Ten Commandments
Moral laws - on murder, theft, honesty, adultery, etc.
Social laws - on property, inheritance, marriage and divorce,
Food laws - on what is clean and unclean, on cooking and storing food.
Purity laws - on menstruation, seminal emissions, skin disease and mildew, etc.
Feasts - the Day of Atonement, Passover, Feast of Tabernacles, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Feast of Weeks etc.
Sacrifices and offerings - the sin offering, burnt offering, whole offering, heave offering, Passover sacrifice, meal offering, wave offering, peace offering, drink offering, thank offering, dough offering, incense offering, red heifer, scapegoat, first fruits, etc.
Instructions for the priesthood and the high priest including tithes.
Instructions regarding the Tabernacle, and which were later applied to the Temple in Jerusalem, including those concerning the Holy of Holies containing the Ark of the Covenant (in which were the tablets of the law, Aaron's rod, the manna). Instructions and for the construction of various altars.
Forward looking instructions for time when Israel would demand a king.
Instructions for Proselytes and the Noahide Laws."


What?!?!?

The 10 commandments are part of the Mosaic Law, which means they are part of the Mosaic Covenant....which means they were fulfilled by Christ and thus no longer apply....thanks Albion, you just freed up my schedule.

[_Albion]

Before I comment on anything perhaps you can give me the quote where I said "the ten commandments are no longer in force". To save you time checking, what I did say was that Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets as clearly stated in scripture...the first part being confirmed out of his own lips. The "law" was made up of hundreds of different commands of which the well known ten, essentially timeless spiritual laws, are only a part.

where? why in the following links, that where.

I specifically asked:

"...how do resolve the "fulfilmment" of the Abrahamic Covenant, The Land Covenant, Davidic Covenant, and the Mosaic Covenant?""

to which you specifically responded:

"All Old Testament covenants are fulfilled in Christ and the New Covenant." (emphasis mine)



So, what is the Mosaic Covenant? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_covenant

"The Mosaic Covenant (named after Moses), also known as the Sinaitic Covenant (named after the biblical Mount Sinai), refers to a biblical covenant between God and the biblical Israelites, including their proselytes. The establishment and stipulations of the Mosaic Covenant are recorded in the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, which are traditionally attributed to Mosaic authorship and collectively called the Torah, and this covenant is sometimes also referred to as the Law of Moses or Mosaic Law or the 613 Mitzvot.

Oh, i see...the Mosaic Covenant is expressed by the Mosaic Law... (spoiler alert note "Sinai" above)

So, what is the Mosaic Law? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Mos ... of_the_Law

"The content of the Law is spread among the books of Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, and then reiterated and added to in Deuteronomy (deutero-nomy is Latinised Greek for "Second reading of the Law"). This includes:

the Ten Commandments
Moral laws - on murder, theft, honesty, adultery, etc.
Social laws - on property, inheritance, marriage and divorce,
Food laws - on what is clean and unclean, on cooking and storing food.
Purity laws - on menstruation, seminal emissions, skin disease and mildew, etc.
Feasts - the Day of Atonement, Passover, Feast of Tabernacles, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Feast of Weeks etc.
Sacrifices and offerings - the sin offering, burnt offering, whole offering, heave offering, Passover sacrifice, meal offering, wave offering, peace offering, drink offering, thank offering, dough offering, incense offering, red heifer, scapegoat, first fruits, etc.
Instructions for the priesthood and the high priest including tithes.
Instructions regarding the Tabernacle, and which were later applied to the Temple in Jerusalem, including those concerning the Holy of Holies containing the Ark of the Covenant (in which were the tablets of the law, Aaron's rod, the manna). Instructions and for the construction of various altars.
Forward looking instructions for time when Israel would demand a king.
Instructions for Proselytes and the Noahide Laws."


What?!?!?

The 10 commandments are part of the Mosaic Law, which means they are part of the Mosaic Covenant....which means they were fulfilled by Christ and thus no longer apply....thanks Albion, you just freed up my schedule.

As I said, you can find nowhere where I said that the ten commandments were not applicable today. Perhaps I was naïve in expecting some kind of retraction if not an apology....or minimally an acknowledgement that you really knew what I was saying when I referenced scripture that Christ "fulfilled the law and the prophets. Was the writer of that scripture wrong when he failed to separate the Ten Commandments from his overall statement on "the law" or do you not extend the same licence to me as you would him in your zeal to score some kind of weak point? Perhaps as an exercise you can research how much of the law, outside the ten commandments, is applicable to Christians today. Christians today live under grace, not the law...the ten commandments are binding because they are spiritual, moral, and eternal in nature. In your search please do not count the "restoration" of law (legalism) inherent in Mormonism in such things as dietary re
quirements and temple ritual.

[_subgenius]

As I said, you can find nowhere where I said that the ten commandments were not applicable today. Perhaps I was naïve in expecting some kind of retraction if not an apology....or minimally an acknowledgement that you really knew what I was saying when I referenced scripture that Christ "fulfilled the law and the prophets. Was the writer of that scripture wrong when he failed to separate the Ten Commandments from his overall statement on "the law" or do you not extend the same licence to me as you would him in your zeal to score some kind of weak point? Perhaps as an exercise you can research how much of the law, outside the ten commandments, is applicable to Christians today. Christians today live under grace, not the law...the ten commandments are binding because they are spiritual, moral, and eternal in nature. In your search please do not count the "restoration" of law (legalism) inherent in Mormonism in such things as dietary re
quirements and temple ritual.

wow...you are in deep, ain't ya?
Fact
my question to you was fairly direct and specific...as was your reply...both without exception
Fact
you stated that "all" the Old Testament covenants have been fulfilled.....yes, "all", not "most", not "some"....but "all".
Fact
the 10 commandments are an Old Testament covenant
Fact
you state that Christians live under Grace not Law
Fact
the commandments are Law

Fact
out of 613 "Laws" (Mitzvot) from the Old Testament you have determined, without any actual scriptural support, that the 10 commandments are the one "Law" that having been fulfilled are still actually in force because apparently they are not really fulfilled.....yes, makes sense....makes sense because you say so, right?

Fact
I have not stated one way or the other on this matter (legalism)...but ye would assume that i have...assumption and the scriptures seem to be your strategy.

Fact
you now claim (move the goalpost here) that the laws that were not fulfilled, or rather fulfilled but not really, are still in force (ie unfulfilled) because they are eternal and are not bound to the context of "the past".
So, the 10 commandments are in...Jesus meant those to be excepted when He was doing His fulfillment thing.
But here are some others Laws...that apparently are not eternal and are fulfilled...according to your position here:

Deut 21:14
"And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not deal with her as a slave, because thou hast humbled her."
now it is acceptable to sell her when one has no more delight with her. Law fulfilled!

No morality or eternal spirituality here...
The court must not kill anybody on circumstantial evidence — Ex. 23:7
The court must not punish anybody who was forced to do a crime — Deut. 22:26
A judge must not pity the murderer or assaulter at the trial — Deut. 19:13
A judge must not have mercy on the poor man at the trial — Lev. 19:15
A judge must not respect the great man at the trial — Lev. 19:15
A judge must not decide unjustly the case of the habitual transgressor — Ex. 23:6
A judge must not pervert justice — Lev. 19:15
Law fulfilled!

No morality or eternal spirituality here either...
Not to have sexual relations with your mother — Lev. 18:7
Not to have sexual relations with your father's wife — Lev. 18:8
Not to have sexual relations with your sister — Lev. 18:9
Not to have sexual relations with your father's wife's daughter — Lev. 18:11
Not to have sexual relations with your son's daughter — Lev. 18:10
Not to have sexual relations with your daughter — Lev. 18:10
Not to have sexual relations with your daughter's daughter — Lev. 18:10
Not to have sexual relations with a woman and her daughter — Lev. 18:17
Not to have sexual relations with a woman and her son's daughter — Lev. 18:17
Not to have sexual relations with a woman and her daughter's daughter — Lev. 18:17
Not to have sexual relations with your father's sister — Lev. 18:12
Not to have sexual relations with your mother's sister — Lev. 18:13
Not to have sexual relations with your father's brother's wife — Lev. 18:14
Not to have sexual relations with your son's wife — Lev. 18:15
Not to have sexual relations with your brother's wife — Lev. 18:16
Not to have sexual relations with your wife's sister — Lev. 18:18
A man must not have sexual relations with an animal — Lev. 18:23
A woman must not have sexual relations with an animal — Lev. 18:23
A man must not have sexual relations with a man — Lev. 18:22
Not to have sexual relations with your father — Lev. 18:7
Not to have sexual relations with your father's brother — Lev. 18:14
Not to have sexual relations with someone else's wife - Lev. 18:20
Law fulfilled!


No morality or eternal spirituality here either...
To listen to the prophet speaking in His Name — Deut. 18:15
Not to try the LORD unduly — Deut. 6:16
To emulate His ways — Deut. 28:9
To cleave to those who know Him — Deut. 10:20
To love other Jews — Lev. 19:18
To love converts — Deut. 10:19
Not to hate fellow Jews — Lev. 19:17
To reprove a sinner — Lev. 19:17
Not to embarrass others — Lev. 19:17
Not to oppress the weak — Ex. 22:21
Not to speak derogatorily of others — Lev. 19:16
Not to take revenge — Lev. 19:18
Not to bear a grudge — Lev. 19:18
Law fulfilled!

and so on and so on...
but none of these matter any more...they may be good advice, but God no longer holds anyone accountable for any of the actions noted above (amongst many others)...
because...
as you stated so eloquently above...
these "Laws" are no longer "...applicable to Christians today. Christians today live under grace, not the law"

again, thank you for the rather "prophetic' clarification of what the scriptures are telling us all.

[_Albion]

All of the items on the list that you so carefully provided are encompassed in the first two commandments and do not have reiteration in the New Testament outside of that. Jesus himself said they encompass all others. Of course Christians should live moral laws...but, Christians are not accountable to law for life or salvation but to the new covenant revealed in Christ and first promised in Jeremiah and introduced at the Last Supper (see Luke 22;20)

"The day will come," says the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah." He continues: "I will put my laws in their minds, and I will write them in their hearts." Jeremiah 31.

"After supper, (Jesus) took another cup of wine and said: "This wine is the token of God's New Covenant to save you--an agreement sealed with the blood I will pour out for you." Luke 22:20

If you do not believe that Jesus "fulfilled the law and the prophets" I suggest you take it up with God who said through Matthew: "Do you think that I have come to abolish the Law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.." Your claims to the contrary you will not find in anything I have written that suggest anything other than this but all has been fulfilled in Christ so that believers are not under penalty of the law but receive salvation as a free gift.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and not from yourselves, it is the gift of God --not by work, so that no one can boast." Eph. 2:8-9

Law has nothing to do with it since keeping the law relates to works...doing. If salvation could be received by doing it would be wages earned and not a gift. The Old Covenant required people to perform ritual, sacrifice and a whole litany of dos and don'ts to demonstrate righteousness. The Old Covenant was essentially an agreement that if God's people obeyed his law and honored him by it he would be their God. No man was made righteous by the law but like Abraham their faith was accounted to them as righteousness. Christ fulfilled that covenant through his atonement by extending salvation as a free gift by grace through faith.

Again, no where in my posts have I stated that the principles of the law are abolished...only the believers' subjection to it for salvation....that is what I am talking about. Secondly since the reread reminded me of something you charged that is also false... I have not "dismissed" prophesy. Prophesy is a spiritual gift that is evident in the body of God's people. What I do dismiss is the need for prophets in the style of Moses and Elijah and in the way that the false gospel of Mormonism claims. Christ is prophet, priest and king to believers, sitting as the believer's advocate at the right hand of God making intercession on their behalf. Believers no longer need mediators between themselves and God.