Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[jpatterson]

Your record speaks for itself.

I know Kishkumen in real life; your assessment couldn't be more wrong.

I know that when challenged to educate himself on the complexities of sexual violence, he scoffs and deflects. As I said, that tells me all I need to know

[Lem]

I disagree that the fact that Open Stories Foundation did not yet have a written policy regarding sexual harassment means that sexual harassment could not have occurred.

There is also an argument, by some of the same posters, that a current policy at a different company does carry weight in this conversation and also means that sexual harassment could not have occurred. This is not a logical position to take, considering an unrelated company's current policy as relevant while at the same time arguing the actual company's current policy is irrelevant. Ultimately, as DStem pointed out, even Apple's policy DOES have a section that defines the situation that occurred at Open Stories Foundation as sexual harassment.

Also, sexual harassment can occur without it being written down. The written part just spells out the penalties, it doesn't magically bring the behavior into or out of existence based on whether penalty for it is in the rules at exactly the moment it happened.

[Kishkumen]

They offered to let her re-apply. As you know, that is not the same as offering to re-hire.

Yeah, I get it. Rosebud is paranoid. She believes people are out to get her or get one over on her. She was "spooked" as you put it above, and concluded that she was going to be bounced to the curb. That paranoia pushed her to dig in her heels at the last minute and refuse to cooperate.

That, in my view, is the real tragedy here: a damaged person who believes she is unlovable and so she punishes herself and anyone else around her whom she assumes is one breath away from betraying her. Because she believes she is unworthy of love. She is punishing Dehlin lest she feel like she is disappearing and she has to live with the odd belief that he somehow won.

Everybody lost. You lost, JP. You keep losing. And you continue to dig that whole in the hopes that your vindictive devotion will pull out a victory for you and Rosebud.

[drumdude]

Did they or did they not offer to rehire A?

They offered to let her re-apply. As you know, that is not the same as offering to re-hire.

She decided not to even re-apply, because they told her she would not have access to the Facebook groups she had been moderating.

Is your employer killing the project you were working on sexual harassment? Being re-assigned to a different role is sexual harassment? We're really broadening the definition.

[dastardly stem]

I suggested the employment decision was terminating her employment.

The context there is that it's quid-pro-quo. John tells Anne she must have sex to keep her job, and Anne either accepts or rejects that.

John telling Anne they're breaking up isn't quid-pro-quo. There's no behavior to accept or reject.

I hear this. I"m simply pointing out a possible argument to be made. If Rosebud felt like she was fired all because of their affair, then it could very well be said there was sexual harassment even on Apple's rules. I'm not saying its clear and surely there is some quid-pro-quo in the context of how they wrote it out, but I wouldn't doubt at all if a sexual harassment claim similar to something spelled out in the JD/Rosebud affair proved successful.

[jpatterson]

You lost, JP. You keep losing.

Literally no clue what you're talking about? What am I losing? Is this a game to you? Are you keeping score?

Really weird.

[Kishkumen]

I know that when challenged to educate himself on the complexities of sexual violence, he scoffs and deflects. As I said, that tells me all I need to know

Your attitude tells me all I need to know. That you are a desperately vindictive loser who is grasping at some shred of relevance by attacking Dehlin, when you could do something productive with your time, like write something worth reading again.

Your definition of the complexities of sexual violence is whatever you can glom onto in your crusade. You are an ideologue who believes there is only one right answer to those complicated questions. Your only use for words like "complex" and "complicated" and "nuanced" is not to acknowledge that the issues are difficult and things that intelligent people of good will can differ on; it is to use them as an ad hominem bludgeon when others dare not to agree with you.

These are rhetorical cheap tricks.

[Kukulkan]

JP seems to be hinging on the fact that in the August 10th email, JD 'admitted' to manipulating Rosebud. Also he seems to believe that because JD engaged in 'faux sexting' the day before that JD isn't capable of complex wants and thought. JD actions must be black and white, there can be no grey area for JP. Either way I've taken some time to read through the email and this is what I have found.

But we fell in love. And it wasn't just me manipulating you. You feel in love with me too. And we roped each other in....probably partly intentionally (at time) and partly unintentionally at times. But we both fell. And I won't ever accept any narrative to contrary. Ever.

You seem to want to use this as the smoking gun that JD has finally admitted to his manipulations! Rejoice! We got him!

I think anyone with common sense reading this WITH context knows that he is referring to the relationship as being one that is unhealthy and toxic. The sentence after very clearly explains that the 'manipulation' he talks about is reference to the 'love' they had for each other being unhealthy and destructive for both parties. You want us to believe that JD is a comic book villain who tells the hero his evil, terrible plans.

But most importantly -- I don't want to end my marriage. I don't want to desert my family. I don't want to seduce you, and I don't want to be seduced by you -- but he sexual tension between us is no longer tenable for me. It's too risky. For everyone. And it's not going away. Just yesterday we begin faux sexting?!?!?! I can't do this, REDACTED. And you know it's not going to stop. More importantly, your resentment for my wife and kids clearly persists. You call me pussy whipped. You continually insult and deman (demean) my relationship with my wife. You insult the way that we're raising our children. You keep telling me that you think I should leave my wife and children. You do this WEEKLY. At least Monthly. Consistently.
Reliably. I understand why you do it...I don't blame you for it. I don't even judge you for it. But what the past 6 months has shown me is that our relationship is just not workable...

It is clear that the relationship was one that was destructive and doomed to fail. It seems that JD realized this sooner than Rosebud did. It is funny you seem to always fail to mention how terrible Rosebud seems to have been to JD. From the emphasized portion it is made very clear that Rosebud was fairly verbally abusive to JD, which most likely lead him to the ultimate conclusion that the relationship had to end. JD's behavior is not without blame, but this narrative that Rosebud was a helpless damsel is very apparently based in nothing. She appeared to be very understanding of what was going on, even to the point of trying to berate JD and emasculate him into leaving his family.

2 things can be true at once.

1. JD wanted to end the relationship.
2. JD still engaged and was drawn into some sexual actions as the relationship was dying and almost at the end. There is such thing as break up sex. 'Faux sexting' seems to be the Mormon version of that.

[drumdude]

Basically, to not have been sexual harassment:

John needed to be fired, permanently.
Anne needed to keep her current position and pay, permanently.
Anne needed to keep access to the Facebook groups she was moderating, permanently.
The board could never fire Anne or change any of her work assignments in the future, or it would then at that point be sexual harassment.

[Kishkumen]

Literally no clue what you're talking about? What am I losing? Is this a game to you? Are you keeping score?

Really weird.

Losing time, losing relevance . . . . Being a loser by wasting your time attacking someone you hate when you could be doing something productive for yourself in your own life.

Plenty of losing.