Ex Nihilo Creation - Problems

[Guest]

However, this discussion and that discussion are related because we are explaining WHY Adam and Eve are ignorant and disobedient to begin with. Is it because God created them that way?

I think first we have to reach the point that Adam and Eve are considered real people and not just fictional characters of a religious myth.

Addressing that topic on the other thread. But I will save myself some typing and explanation by copying and pasting this FAIRMORMON statement:
Although the [LDS] church has no official position on the occurrence of evolution (other than the creation did not occur ex nihilo), strong opinions have been expressed on both sides of the question. Some have hypothesized that God, being bound by natural laws, used evolution to create what we see now in the fossil record. In order for this to have occurred there logically would have been procreation and death among plants and animals before the fall of Adam.

Some LDS members and leaders have argued that there was no death anywhere on earth prior to the Fall, and such a position also assumes—if only implicitly—that there was likewise no procreation. (See FAIR wiki article on Death before the Fall.) Other members and leaders have held that, as Elder James E. Talmage said, "life and death have been in existence and operative in this earth for ages prior to [Adam]."

Does God have free will?

Is that a serious question, or were you laughing when you typed it?

It was a serious question. If you are paying attention to the thread, then you will see why I asked it.

-7up

[_seven7up]

I, and LDS, absolutely believe that God has free will. Earlier, you essentially argued that God could not have free will. Only, at the time you did not realize that was what you were arguing.

This seems to be a little inaccurate.
Are you proposing that God is capable of lying? that God is capable of being unjust? that God is capable of breaking a covenant?

God has the choice to break a covenant. However, the amazing thing about God is that his choices are always, always truthful and faithful. That is one of the things about God's character that make God unique compared to us flawed human beings.

So, are you saying that God can cheat if He so desires?

God COULD cheat IF God desired to do so. Again, since God's nature is morally perfect, ... God never desires to cheat. Or lie. Etc. That doesn't mean that God has no free will at all.

I mean, this would speak to the fundamental nature of God...does He define the Law or does the Law define Him?

Neither. Mormons have suggested that Eternal Law and God's character are in perfect harmony. This eternal harmony is what makes God who he is. God offers to bring us up to that level with Him.

-7up

[_Bazooka]

I think first we have to reach the point that Adam and Eve are considered real people and not just fictional characters of a religious myth.

Addressing that topic on the other thread. But I will save myself some typing and explanation by copying and pasting this FAIRMORMON statement:
Although the [LDS] church has no official position on the occurrence of evolution (other than the creation did not occur ex nihilo), strong opinions have been expressed on both sides of the question. Some have hypothesized that God, being bound by natural laws, used evolution to create what we see now in the fossil record. In order for this to have occurred there logically would have been procreation and death among plants and animals before the fall of Adam.

Some LDS members and leaders have argued that there was no death anywhere on earth prior to the Fall, and such a position also assumes—if only implicitly—that there was likewise no procreation. (See FAIR wiki article on Death before the Fall.) Other members and leaders have held that, as Elder James E. Talmage said, "life and death have been in existence and operative in this earth for ages prior to [Adam]."

I looked up that paragraph from FAIRMORMON on Google and it came back with "see definition of Fence Sitting".....

[_subgenius]

I, and LDS, absolutely believe that God has free will.

Earlier, you essentially argued that God could not have free will.

Only, at the time you did not realize that was what you were arguing.

-7up

This seems to be a little inaccurate.
Are you proposing that God is capable of lying? that God is capable of being unjust? that God is capable of breaking a covenant?
I mean, this would speak to the fundamental nature of God...does He define the Law or does the Law define Him?

So, are you saying that God can cheat if He so desires?..and perhaps more importantly...is He able to even have that desire?

bump for seven7up

[_huckelberry]

We are part of a family with family characteristics.Events do not happen as isolated chosen inventions. Everthing that happens including us is part of a chain of cause and effect in which everything is tied together. The people you live with have been shaped by the people and decisions of generation upon generation of individuals. God created a whole family.

So .... we are victims of circumstance? That argument does not help your position.


Feel free to expand on this. I will be happy to discuss it with you. But for now, let's keep it simple: If we have a scenario whereby if we accept Jesus, we get eternal happiness and bliss. If we reject Jessus, we get eternal damnation. Being omnipotent, God can create any kind of being that is logically possible from God's own imagination ex nihilo; yet God ends up creating beings who choose eternal damnation. Please explain.


-7up

I have no idea what victims of circumstances has to do with this discussion.

Startled, I cannot imagine why I would wish to explain that bunch of chic comic stuff. I hope that sort of thinking sinks to the bottom of the sea.

So far you insist I hear nothing of what you really mean and I see no indication you have heard my view at all. Pure noncommunication both ways it appears.

[_seven7up]

I looked up that paragraph from FAIRMORMON on Google and it came back with "see definition of Fence Sitting".....

Mine came up with the phrase "Don't make assumptions."


-7up

[_Bazooka]

I think first we have to reach the point that Adam and Eve are considered real people and not just fictional characters of a religious myth.

Addressing that topic on the other thread. But I will save myself some typing and explanation by copying and pasting this FAIRMORMON statement:
Although the [LDS] church has no official position on the occurrence of evolution (other than the creation did not occur ex nihilo), strong opinions have been expressed on both sides of the question. Some have hypothesized that God, being bound by natural laws, used evolution to create what we see now in the fossil record. In order for this to have occurred there logically would have been procreation and death among plants and animals before the fall of Adam.

Some LDS members and leaders have argued that there was no death anywhere on earth prior to the Fall, and such a position also assumes—if only implicitly—that there was likewise no procreation. (See FAIR wiki article on Death before the Fall.) Other members and leaders have held that, as Elder James E. Talmage said, "life and death have been in existence and operative in this earth for ages prior to [Adam]."

Elder Talmage, FAIRMORMON and 7up, don't seem to know what the Church doctrine on the subject is....let me help.

Fall of Adam and Eve
The process by which mankind became mortal on this earth. The event is recorded in Gen. 2–4 and Moses 3–4. The Fall of Adam and Eve is one of the most important occurrences in the history of man. Before the Fall, there were no sin, no death, and no children. With the eating of the “forbidden fruit,” Adam and Eve became mortal, sin entered, and death became a part of life. Adam became the “first flesh” upon the earth (Moses 3:7), meaning that he and Eve were the first to become mortal. After Adam fell, the whole creation fell and became mortal. Adam’s Fall brought both physical and spiritual death into the world upon all mankind (Hel. 14:16–17).

http://www.LDS.org/scriptures/bd/fall-o ... e?lang=eng

So, explain how the reference to "the whole creation" means something other than everything that had been created.....

[_ludwigm]

Elder Talmage, FAIRMORMON and 7up, don't seem to know what the Church doctrine on the subject is...

The only one is bcspace. He knows all the -is-' and -isn't-s

Adam became the “first flesh” upon the earth (Moses 3:7), meaning that he and Eve were the first to become mortal.

http://www.LDS.org/scriptures/bd/fall-o ... e?lang=eng

I got it. The male pre-adamites plugged in their non-flesh organs into the contemporay female's non-flesh organs. Then they didn't die - as they were nonmortals -, so repeated the action until A&E appeared on the scene.

I could insert some picture here. Please imagine.
Call me a mucker!
- On a farm, a "mucker" is a person who shovels feces ("muck") from animal stalls in a barn. A "mucker" is a person who mucks, i.e., shovel.

[_Uncle Ed]

Roberts, Talmage, et al. EDUCATED Mormons of yesteryear, were the first intellectuals in the church to also be GAs. This caused no end of trouble for the likes of Brigham Young's immediate posterity who possessed lesser educations and therefore denied the evidence discovered by science. The world is incredibly old. BRM cannot stand. The world's "temporal" span is far more than 6K years of creation, a "Sabbath" of c. 1K, 6K more years of "dispensations" and c. 1K of Millennium. So Roberts, Talmage, et al. must go and sit on fences until the resurrection. That makes all of them a "pain in the ass"

An original song, composed on the spur while watching my children play steal the flag in the Sacred Grove, lo, these many years ago: (sing it to the tune, "Genealogy")

Brontosaurus pee, I am drinking it
Old Brontosaurus pee
And the reason why I am drinking it
Is very clear to me
Every drop of moisture in the atmosphere
Is older than B.C.
What was once in that old dinosaur
Will turn to pee in me.

[_ludwigm]

Roberts, Talmage, et al. EDUCATED Mormons of yesteryear ...

They are dead.