Ex Nihilo Creation - Problems

[_seven7up]

Some leaders have taught what you claim here but others have not and have even debated the issue with each other, by teaching that the "death" of plants and animals is compatible with LDS doctrine. See also the debate between Elder Roberts and then-Elder Smith

Even way back in the 1800s, with Brigham Young for example, LDS leaders were willing to throw away false assumptions:

"In these respects we differ from the Christian world, for our religion will not clash with or contradict the facts of science in any particular. You may take geology, for instance, and it is a true science; not that I would say for a moment that all the conclusions and deductions of its professors are true, but its leading principles are; they are facts--they are eternal; and to assert that the Lord made this earth out of nothing is preposterous and impossible. God never made something out of nothing; it is not in the economy or law by which the worlds were, are, or will exist. There is an eternity before us, and it is full of matter; and if we but understand enough of the Lord and his ways, we would say that he took of this matter and organized this earth from it. How long it has been organized it is not for me to say, and I do not care anything about it. As for the Bible account of the creation we may say that the Lord gave it to Moses, or rather Moses obtained the history and traditions of the fathers, and from these picked out what he considered necessary, and that account has been handed down from age to age, and we have got it, no matter whether it is correct or not, and whether the Lord found the earth empty and void, whether he made it out of nothing or out of the rude elements; or whether he made it in six days or in as many millions of years, is and will remain a matter of speculation in the minds of men unless he give revelation on the subject. If we understood the process of creation there would be no mystery about it, it would be all reasonable and plain, for there is no mystery except to the ignorant."

There you have it. Even Brigham Young was willing to admit that we are ignorant when it comes down to the details of creation, and how God went about doing it. Pretty impressive for a 19th century pioneer.

Perhaps God wrote a program that writes all programs, and then set it loose.

-7up

[_Tobin]

Let's say that God took billions of years to create the Earth (and even possibly create through evolution), then the Earth arrives at the point in progression whereby God decides He is ready to place his spiritual children into physical bodies. Then let's say that at that point God ordains a paradisaical state where there is no death, because only then was the creation considered "very good" and habitable in order for God to enact His plan. Perhaps that point is when the History of the Earth begins concerning "how mankind became mortal on this Earth" and when Adam became the "primal parent of our race".

Close. ONLY the Garden was in a paradisiacal state. That is the error the Mormons seem to often make here. And it is seems from the Genesis story if you read it closely (and temple ceremony) that Adam and Eve were then cast out into our world after they sinned. And it seems this world was clearly populated as well from the evidence that we have collected. That is not very unusual for how God seems to operate. God seems to select individuals and small groups and seeds populations from time-to-time (in essence colonizing them). I think we'll find that was true with the Book of Mormon as well. The Americas were not empty when the Lehites came here.

[_Bazooka]

Guys,

The process by which mankind became mortal on this earth. The event is recorded in Gen. 2–4 and Moses 3–4. The Fall of Adam and Eve is one of the most important occurrences in the history of man. Before the Fall, there were no sin, no death, and no children. With the eating of the “forbidden fruit,” Adam and Eve became mortal, sin entered, and death became a part of life. Adam became the “first flesh” upon the earth (Moses 3:7), meaning that he and Eve were the first to become mortal. After Adam fell, the whole creation fell and became mortal. Adam’s Fall brought both physical and spiritual death into the world upon all mankind (Hel. 14:16–17).

What is it about this clear doctrinal statement, taken from LDS.org that you disagree with?

[_subgenius]

Guys,

The process by which mankind became mortal on this earth. The event is recorded in Gen. 2–4 and Moses 3–4. The Fall of Adam and Eve is one of the most important occurrences in the history of man. Before the Fall, there were no sin, no death, and no children. With the eating of the “forbidden fruit,” Adam and Eve became mortal, sin entered, and death became a part of life. Adam became the “first flesh” upon the earth (Moses 3:7), meaning that he and Eve were the first to become mortal. After Adam fell, the whole creation fell and became mortal. Adam’s Fall brought both physical and spiritual death into the world upon all mankind (Hel. 14:16–17).

What is it about this clear doctrinal statement, taken from LDS.org that you disagree with?

Not a "doctrinal statement". - while you were careful to provide something from the LDS Bible Dictionary you fail (as usual) to read your own sources
"This dictionary is provided to help your study of the scriptures and is not intended as an official statement of Church doctrine or an endorsement of the historical and cultural views set forth."(emphasis mine) - http://www.LDS.org/scriptures/bd?lang=eng



That death existed or did not exist on the entire earth is not a church doctrine.

[_subgenius]

my favorite pictures of bazookas









[deleted]

[_palerobber]

my favorite pictures of bazookas









[deleted]

hey subgenious, why are you afraid to post in the Terrestrial Forum?

just curious.

[_Bazooka]

The process by which mankind became mortal on this earth. The event is recorded in Gen. 2–4 and Moses 3–4. The Fall of Adam and Eve is one of the most important occurrences in the history of man. Before the Fall, there were no sin, no death, and no children. With the eating of the “forbidden fruit,” Adam and Eve became mortal, sin entered, and death became a part of life. Adam became the “first flesh” upon the earth (Moses 3:7), meaning that he and Eve were the first to become mortal. After Adam fell, the whole creation fell and became mortal. Adam’s Fall brought both physical and spiritual death into the world upon all mankind (Hel. 14:16–17).

Not a "doctrinal statement". - while you were careful to provide something from the LDS Bible Dictionary you fail (as usual) to read your own sources
"This dictionary is provided to help your study of the scriptures and is not intended as an official statement of Church doctrine or an endorsement of the historical and cultural views set forth."(emphasis mine) - http://www.LDS.org/scriptures/bd?lang=eng



That death existed or did not exist on the entire earth is not a church doctrine.

You seem to be suggesting that the Church publishes on LDS.org statements that are hearsay and speculation rather than what Mormonism teaches or believes. Is that what you are saying? Also, that disclaimer is quite poignant. It's telling us that the Church isn't prepared to stand by it's own teachings, definitions and explanations - does that sound like an organisation that can be trusted to tell the truth?

The prophet Lehi explained:

“And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen [been cut off from the presence of God], but he would have remained in the Garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created. …

“And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

“But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy” (2 Nephi 2:22–25).

I suppose you're now going to tell us that the Gospel Principles manual and Book of Mormon are merely study helps and not intended as an official statement of Church doctrine.....
http://www.LDS.org/manual/gospel-princi ... e?lang=eng

[_subgenius]

hey subgenious, why are you afraid to post in the Terrestrial Forum?

just curious.

Just because i refrain from something does not mean that i am afraid.

[_subgenius]

You seem to be suggesting that the Church publishes on LDS.org statements that are hearsay and speculation rather than what Mormonism teaches or believes. Is that what you are saying? Also, that disclaimer is quite poignant. It's telling us that the Church isn't prepared to stand by it's own teachings, definitions and explanations - does that sound like an organisation that can be trusted to tell the truth?

I am not suggesting anything, and the above mentioned post is a clear statement - particularly clear on your misunderstanding and misuse of church doctrine and/or information.
Clearly, the "dictionary" is not intended to be doctrine and only a fool would think otherwise. The church has a clear position on what is doctrine and how that doctrine is disseminated and where it is located. Your insistence that it resides elsewhere and is conveyed otherwise is yet another revelation of your own obstacles with regards to this topic - and others.

The prophet Lehi explained:

“And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen [been cut off from the presence of God], but he would have remained in the Garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created. …

“And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

“But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy” (2 Nephi 2:22–25).

I suppose you're now going to tell us that the Gospel Principles manual and Book of Mormon are merely study helps and not intended as an official statement of Church doctrine.....
http://www.LDS.org/manual/gospel-princi ... e?lang=eng

No, why would i tell you that?
The reference you provided is quite accurate and does not qualify your argument at all.
The context of that lesson and the context of that scripture does not speak to the expanse of creation, whether it be all of creation within the Garden...or ALL of Creation...inconvenient for you is that this is the only scripture that even alludes to the notion of "all" - and that allusion is rather ambiguous.
Bottom line
the manual makes no statement that there was no death in the entire world
the church doctrine does not teach that there was no death in the entire world

and the church, itself, has issued specific directions regarding this issue (as noted previously-First Presidency, Memorandum to General Authorities, April 1931, 6–7) which contradict the rabbit hole you are digging.

I appreciate your desperation but the preponderance of evidence favors you being wrong. (again )