RockSlider wrote: So what is different about what I suggested and what you have said here? Was it how you came up with your item 1 ("about a matter" ... what brought this matter to the forefront to start with?). Or was it my trying to explain the effect of the answer ... i.e. poking head to veil, effect of knowledge transfer etc.?
Otherwise it sounds pretty close to what I suggested.
Two of mine were spontaneous, and I would classify these as dreams, how about you?
by the way, it was a dream that lead me to be an ordnance worker in the first place, if you will share the details of any one of your revelations, I'll share with you this experience of mine ... what do you say?
the "differences" are glaring and distinct: you said your experience was: "idea presented by someone else" "was usually offensive" "immediately to find fault" "taught by Spirit in the moment" (in your described context) "cannot remember a time when it was not true"
these items are not my experience...and i answered your inquiry as for having a "like experience" accordingly.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
subgenius wrote:these items are not my experience...and i answered your inquiry as for having a "like experience" accordingly.
Ok, so lets get to the brass tacks ... please walk me through one of your experiences, what was the thing you sought further light and knowledge for? What prompted this search? How was the answer received, what was that answer? Jay and I have both been pretty specific on some of our answers, we were both vague on what prompted them (I assumed/suggested a common factor).
I can see from Jay's list that he and I had some very similar experiences, I assume to the same intensity that I have suggested.
This OP is about learning by the spirit. Your current answer is right out of any correlated lesson manual. Your lack of providing any details of what was learned and any indication of the intensity of how this was learned makes me question your actual experience with this topic. I'm looking for some real, solid examples of this in your life. Please give details of one experience.
Once again, I am willing to share more if you will but share one ... I'm not trying to make fun or belittle your experience here as this is a very painful part of my past. Share an example Sub.
For as much as the Mormons pride themselves about personal revelation, of God being no respecter of persons, how Joseph Smith would have it that every member a Prophet, seer and revelator, I suspect that the large majority of Mormons experience with "Prayer and Learning by the Spirit" is limited to what I suspect subgenius has listed up thread.
The only thing missing out of subgenius's list is the well known Mormon's understanding of how to interpret God's instruction. You know, the old burning in the bosom or the stupor of thought thing.
Thus the individual is taught that instruction/learning is limited to a binary, true/false, yes/no answer from God via the burning (yes) stupor of thought (no). Thus if the individual does not come up with the right questions there could be no learning by the spirit. And if the individual does come across some questions of any interest/concern they are limited to only a confirmation of what their understanding of the issue is.
And yet what of those that have "looked beyond the mark" of the Boolean answers from God and have sought to ask and then listen, for a minimum of some sentences and paragraphs from the "Still Small Voice", or why not a dream or vision .. you know maybe even sharing Lehi and Nephi's vision of the tree of life?
In every case I can remember, these individuals have ended up alienated from the church, awkward or outright shunned by other members, off on bizarre paths.
So what is it subgenius, have you ever had any "Learning by the Spirit" beyond the burning/stupor communication method?
subgenius wrote:these items are not my experience...and i answered your inquiry as for having a "like experience" accordingly.
Ok, so lets get to the brass tacks ... please walk me through one of your experiences, what was the thing you sought further light and knowledge for? What prompted this search? How was the answer received, what was that answer? Jay and I have both been pretty specific on some of our answers, we were both vague on what prompted them (I assumed/suggested a common factor).
I can see from Jay's list that he and I had some very similar experiences, I assume to the same intensity that I have suggested.
This OP is about learning by the spirit. Your current answer is right out of any correlated lesson manual. Your lack of providing any details of what was learned and any indication of the intensity of how this was learned makes me question your actual experience with this topic. I'm looking for some real, solid examples of this in your life. Please give details of one experience.
Once again, I am willing to share more if you will but share one ... I'm not trying to make fun or belittle your experience here as this is a very painful part of my past. Share an example Sub.
"Anecdotal evidence is an informal account of evidence in the form of an anecdote. The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, as evidence that cannot be investigated using the scientific method. The problem with arguing based on anecdotal evidence is that anecdotal evidence is not necessarily typical; only statistical evidence can determine how typical something is. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is an informal fallacy." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdote#Q ... s_evidence
While i appreciate your criticism, and cynicism, i have yet to understand your motive. While your motive may seem unnecessary, and likely it is on this point, i am prompted about Matthew 7:6. For i have pondered and prayed about this very discussion. Perhaps that is as good an example as any for your purposes.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
RockSlider wrote:For as much as the Mormons pride themselves about personal revelation, of God being no respecter of persons, how Joseph Smith would have it that every member a Prophet, seer and revelator, I suspect that the large majority of Mormons experience with "Prayer and Learning by the Spirit" is limited to what I suspect subgenius has listed up thread.
The only thing missing out of subgenius's list is the well known Mormon's understanding of how to interpret God's instruction. You know, the old burning in the bosom or the stupor of thought thing.
Thus the individual is taught that instruction/learning is limited to a binary, true/false, yes/no answer from God via the burning (yes) stupor of thought (no). Thus if the individual does not come up with the right questions there could be no learning by the spirit. And if the individual does come across some questions of any interest/concern they are limited to only a confirmation of what their understanding of the issue is.
And yet what of those that have "looked beyond the mark" of the Boolean answers from God and have sought to ask and then listen, for a minimum of some sentences and paragraphs from the "Still Small Voice", or why not a dream or vision .. you know maybe even sharing Lehi and Nephi's vision of the tree of life?
In every case I can remember, these individuals have ended up alienated from the church, awkward or outright shunned by other members, off on bizarre paths.
So what is it subgenius, have you ever had any "Learning by the Spirit" beyond the burning/stupor communication method?
Yes.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
Why would you be unwilling to discuss this topic? I can understand any feelings of sacredness and not being willing to share exactly what might have been taught, but surely you could elaborate on how you pray, and how you receive answers. You seemed pretty opposed to my attempt at verbalizing how I used to receive "Learning", so exactly how do you go about it, and how does it work for you?
Tell you what, I will spend more time here and try to more precisely describe how I would prepare for, pray and receive instruction.
Can we at least discuss the mechanics of Prayer and Learning by the Spirit?
Why would you be unwilling to discuss this topic? I can understand any feelings of sacredness and not being willing to share exactly what might have been taught, but surely you could elaborate on how you pray, and how you receive answers. You seemed pretty opposed to my attempt at verbalizing how I used to receive "Learning", so exactly how do you go about it, and how does it work for you?
Tell you what, I will spend more time here and try to more precisely describe how I would prepare for, pray and receive instruction.
Can we at least discuss the mechanics of Prayer and Learning by the Spirit?
mechanics?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
yea, for example, how do you prepare for prayer, how do you pray, how do the answers come to you? I assume we are not talking about the family prayer here, or a prayer of food.
Your lack of willingness to share anything here makes me wonder if your prayers are limited to the simpler quick daily family prayers and if you are simply regurgitating how you have been taught it should be.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
Let me give you a solid example of how it worked for me, how I learned how to pray.
I took Temple Ordinance work very seriously. One of the duties of an Ordinance worker was the “Follower”, the guy sitting in the back of the room. One of the Followers main duties was to give the prayer. We were instructed, that to fulfill this duty we should pray for what we should pray for. What are the needs of the patrons that had come this day, and of those whose names were on the prayer rolls of the Temple.
Thus it seems the only thing I could possibly know to ask for: “My Father in Heaven, please help me sense the needs of these people and to know what I should pray for”
Now what? Ending the prayer right there did not seem right, should I not have faith (Lectures on Faith definition of faith) with a full expectation of an answer? Should I not expect the Still Small Voice to answer? Well with the better part of 90 minutes available in a darkened room and a very monotone voices in the back ground, I would not end my prayer, but try and listen for the answer.
Surprisingly this was hard, as my mind was full of thoughts of my personal life, work, family etc. and it would take a focused effort to try and clear my mind of all my thoughts, to find silence and to listen. This process would leave my body in a totally relaxed state, with my mind clear, alert and crisp. After following this process many times, it dawned on me that I was placing myself in a fairly deep meditative state.
So, after that long introduction, the meat and potatoes of when I desired to pray “in my closet”.
1. Be somewhere you can be alone for an extended period of time (late at night after family to bed, in the front room) 2. Never kneel, at least without good pillows and actually ending up more in a sitting position. Kneeling is just too painful and uncomfortable and cannot be maintained for more than a couple minutes. 3. Seek a meditative state, clear your mind of all thoughts. 4. Speak out loud vocally in a whisper for your part of the conversation to separate the thoughts (still small voice) from your thoughts. 5. Look for the personality (don’t know a better way to put this) of the thoughts and discern their message.