Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[Esme]

I don't know. I thought that intent, mens rea, or whatever you call it counts for something? That's why I'm asking. (eg. I have a friend who slept with his sister and got away with it... he didn't know she was his sister.)

So the final answer, that I can take as gospel is: it doesn't matter? Is this what you are saying?

Well, if you get caught speeding on a road, you can't use "I didn't know what the speed limit was" as a defense. If you are going to drive on the road, it's your duty to find out what the speed limit is.
If you're going to engage in a relationship with a co-worker, I think it would be your duty to find out what the status of your co-worker is.

[Lem]

Consider this. A male subordinate and female superior engage and a workplace affair. After a while, the female superior faced with the ultimatum of choosing the male subordinate over her family ultimately chooses her family. After this the male subordinate continues to contact and berate the female superior into being with him. That is sexual harassment.

Did the female superior arrange for the male subordinate to lose his job? If so, the female superior is guilty of sexual harassment. The way the male subordinate responded is irrelevant to that conclusion. When a superior has a sexual relationship with a subordinate, and the subordinate loses their job as a result, it is sexual harassment.

[consiglieri]

I believe it is a smart move for a victim to obtain power.

You say that like you think a victim in this kind of situation can gain power. in my opinion, that does not recognize the power differentials.

I say this like a victim can gain power by actually demonstrating she was treated unequally.

[Kukulkan]

Consider this. A male subordinate and female superior engage and a workplace affair. After a while, the female superior faced with the ultimatum of choosing the male subordinate over her family ultimately chooses her family. After this the male subordinate continues to contact and berate the female superior into being with him. That is sexual harassment.

Did the female superior arrange for the male subordinate to lose his job? If so, the female superior is guilty of sexual harassment. The way the male subordinate responded is irrelevant to that conclusion. When a superior has a sexual relationship with a subordinate, and the subordinate loses their job as a result, it is sexual harassment.

No because the male subordinates actions dictated the employers decision to terminate him. This claimed 'arrangement' doesn't exist. The termination is predicated on the subordinates harassment of their superior. Also, the reason why the subordinate was terminated is completely important and relevant.

[pistolero]

I think a Mormon man is more likely to be worried about his loving spouse, temple covenants, excommunication threat, etc... before he considers, unintended or otherwise, workplace sexual harassment.

Considering that he voluntarily had an affair, I think that ship has sailed. If you are arguing that after he wanted the affair to end, he was more concerned with his standing with his spouse, and his church, then of course, I agree. Getting rid of a problematic mistress is always easier when you invoke family and church. Too bad neither of them were thinking family and church when they started this sordid affair.

In the midst of sinful behaviour, I'm quite comfortable with the idea that JD "came to himself". I'm not discounting that he was using those excuses as a reason to distance Rosebud, but I certainly don't think it's shown in any of the evidence that we have.

The point of my message wasn't that all - I'm almost nervous to post things otherwise they get jumped on for a completely different reason than is intended. I'm just pointing out that JD would be more conscious of the reasons I listed, rather than workplace harassment law minutiae (eg. was she an employee, contractor, whatever) when it came to engaging in an affair with Rosebud.

[Kishkumen]

No because the male subordinates actions dictated the employers decision to terminate him. This claimed 'arrangement' doesn't exist. The termination is predicated on the subordinates harassment of their superior. Also, the reason why the subordinate was terminated is completely important and relevant.

Well put, Kukulkán. I agree.

[Lem]

You say that like you think a victim in this kind of situation can gain power. in my opinion, that does not recognize the power differentials.

I say this like a victim can gain power by actually demonstrating she was treated unequally.

A subordinate who lost her job as a result of a relationship with a superior has already demonstrated she was treated unequally.

I still don't understand your comment here:

If Rosebud had ceased and desisted as JD asked, there is no reason to suspect the board would ever have gotten involved.

Rosebud could still have been working for Open Stories Foundation doing the thing she loved if she had just backed down when asked and cooled her jets.

Sexual harassment can be a two-way street.

When I asked about this before, you brought up Rosebud's post about JD's erectile dysfunction, which I agree is inappropriate.

What I am more interested in, however, are your thoughts, so I will repeat my question: are you suggesting that if a woman would have just "ceased and desisted", and "just backed down when asked and cooled her jets" when a superior was finished with her as a sexual plaything, she could have kept her job?

[pistolero]

I don't know. I thought that intent, mens rea, or whatever you call it counts for something? That's why I'm asking. (eg. I have a friend who slept with his sister and got away with it... he didn't know she was his sister.)

So the final answer, that I can take as gospel is: it doesn't matter? Is this what you are saying?

Well, if you get caught speeding on a road, you can't use "I didn't know what the speed limit was" as a defense. If you are going to drive on the road, it's your duty to find out what the speed limit is.
If you're going to engage in a relationship with a co-worker, I think it would be your duty to find out what the status of your co-worker is.

Well that's a load of bollocks. Of course you can use that as a defense. Poor signage is most definitely a reason for appealing a speeding ticket. At least in this jurisdiction.

Again, the relationship started before she entered a contractual relationship with Open Stories Foundation. Has anyone pronounced on what this means legally?

[Kishkumen]

Again, the relationship started before she entered a contractual relationship with Open Stories Foundation. Has anyone pronounced on what this means legally?

Good question. Maybe consiglieri will chime in on that.

[Kishkumen]

What I am more interested in, however, are your thoughts, so I will repeat my question: are you suggesting that if a woman would have just "ceased and desisted", and "just backed down when asked and cooled her jets" when a superior was finished with her as a sexual plaything, she could have kept her job?

Especially when she was not done with him as her sexual plaything! Why should she not speak out when she wants more sex from JD? She should be able to demand as much sex from him as she likes!