Thoughts regarding God's Grace

[_huckelberry]

If I am understanding you correctly, I would agree that ordinances such as baptism are the public or outward demonstration of God's grace in the life of the repentant sinner. The outpouring of God's grace to forgiveness of sin comes through faith...sin is forgiven through grace and not by some magical quality in baptismal water. Submission to baptism is the demonstration of the saving grace that has already taken place.

Albion, you present a long established Protestant parsing of the matter. It preserves Luthers "alone". Ok

I find in Romans (ch6) Do you know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptiend into his death ? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the father we too might walk in the newness of life.

I am not speaking now to represent an LDS view but my own understanding . (from both Catholic and Protestant teachers)
I think something more vital than "magic washing" or demonstration of faith is happening here in baptism. For my thinking I would rather not chop our connection to Jesus into seperate pieces, faith, ordinance and, love in action.Though different portions of Romans focuses on these individually they can be understood as one whole.

[_LeVay]

again...not evidence, but speculation.
nevertheless, your consideration of this book's sensationalism and out-of-context pontifications is simply another...and so on...and so on...and so on...

Do you need a hug, subgenius? C'mon, lemme give you a hug. There now, doesn't that fell better?

[_Albion]

Huckleberry, I have no real disagreement with what you say. While at its core I believe that baptism is as I have described it there is much more involved. I think that by his death on the cross Jesus put the final seal on his separation from sin and by submitting to baptism, a symbolic death and resurrection, the believer puts a final seal on a past life of sin...baptized into Christ's death the old man dies to the sinful life and the new man arises committed to newness of life ibn Christ. Just as death no longer has a hold on Christ because he overcame it, so this new man in Christ need no longer fear spiritual death because he died to sin through God's grace and baptism. I do not think we are apart on this.

[_subgenius]

Do you need a hug, subgenius? C'mon, lemme give you a hug. There now, doesn't that fell better?

your concession is duly noted

[_LeVay]

Do you need a hug, subgenius? C'mon, lemme give you a hug. There now, doesn't that fell better?

your my concession concussion is duly dully noted

There, fixed it for ya.

[_subgenius]

There, fixed it for ya.

please, tell us more about satanism...i mean Ayn Rand with a little red mascot.

a few funny excerpts from the LaVey handbook for self-improvement:
Better living through Satan can be achieved by following these 11 simple "commandments" -

1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2.Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3.When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4.If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5.Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6.Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7.Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8.Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9.Do not harm little children.
10.Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11.When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

[_LeVay]

There, fixed it for ya.

please, tell us more about satanism...i mean Ayn Rand with a little red mascot.

a few funny excerpts from the LaVey handbook for self-improvement:
Better living through Satan can be achieved by following these 11 simple "commandments" -

1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2.Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3.When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4.If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5.Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6.Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7.Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8.Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9.Do not harm little children.
10.Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11.When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

Thank you for reading, but don't you think this post belongs in the Bible Verse by Verse thread?

[_LeVay]

Huckleberry, I have no real disagreement with what you say. While at its core I believe that baptism is as I have described it there is much more involved. I think that by his death on the cross Jesus put the final seal on his separation from sin and by submitting to baptism, a symbolic death and resurrection, the believer puts a final seal on a past life of sin...baptized into Christ's death the old man dies to the sinful life and the new man arises committed to newness of life ibn Christ. Just as death no longer has a hold on Christ because he overcame it, so this new man in Christ need no longer fear spiritual death because he died to sin through God's grace and baptism. I do not think we are apart on this.

This begs the question...in what way is belief in the supernatural elements of religion different from a belief in magic?

[_huckelberry]

Huckleberry, I have no real disagreement with what you say. While at its core I believe that baptism is as I have described it there is much more involved. I think that by his death on the cross Jesus put the final seal on his separation from sin and by submitting to baptism, a symbolic death and resurrection, the believer puts a final seal on a past life of sin...baptized into Christ's death the old man dies to the sinful life and the new man arises committed to newness of life ibn Christ. Just as death no longer has a hold on Christ because he overcame it, so this new man in Christ need no longer fear spiritual death because he died to sin through God's grace and baptism. I do not think we are apart on this.

This begs the question...in what way is belief in the supernatural elements of religion different from a belief in magic?

i do not know. What is magic?

card tricks?
slight of hand?
a terrific trick where a solid metal ring passes through two thumbs bound together in an amazing catch?

I heard Janis Joplin in 1967 Austin Texas folk music club. She used a six string acoustic, a kazoo and some magic to blow the house down. I have never seen the like since.

[_LeVay]

i do not know. What is magic?

card tricks?
slight of hand?
a terrific trick where a solid metal ring passes through two thumbs bound together in an amazing catch?

I'm fine with the wikitionary definition of magic:

Magic most commonly refers to:
Magic (paranormal), the use of paranormal methods to manipulate natural forces (e.g., witchcraft)
Magic (illusion), the art of appearing to perform supernatural feats (e.g., magic tricks)
Magic in fiction, attributed to extraordinary beings or objects (commonly, as magical or magically)

I heard Janis Joplin in 1967 Austin Texas folk music club. She used a six string acoustic, a kazoo and some magic to blow the house down. I have never seen the like since.

That definitely sounds like something worth seeing. Too bad she's gone.