BCSpace is my favorite mopologist

[_mentalgymnast]

After praying for guidance, President McKay did not feel impressed to lift the ban.15

That sentence tells us a lot about either President McKay, the Church or God...none of it good.

I'm guessing that you're operating under the assumption that there was another answer that Pres. McKay should have received? by the way, I'm guessing you've read the book by Gregory Prince.

http://www.amazon.com/David-McKay-Rise- ... 0874808227

if my memory serves me, it's been a while since I read the book, there was a bit more to the story...

Regards,
MG

[_Bazooka]

After praying for guidance, President McKay did not feel impressed to lift the ban.15

That sentence tells us a lot about either President McKay, the Church or God...none of it good.

I'm guessing that you're operating under the assumption that there was another answer that Pres. McKay should have received? by the way, I'm guessing you've read the book by Gregory Prince.

http://www.amazon.com/David-McKay-Rise- ... 0874808227

if my memory serves me, it's been a while since I read the book, there was a bit more to the story...

Regards,
MG

Well, let's see what options we have:
1. President McKay wasn't worthy of receiving an answer.
2. President McKay wasn't a Prophet and therefore wasn't communicating with God.
3. President McKay was told by God to lift the ban, but he ignored it.
4. President McKay was told by God to keep the ban in place.
5. President McKay prayed but no one was listening so he had to make his own mind up.

Can you think of other options that cannot be summarised by these 5 options?

[_mentalgymnast]

Well, let's see what options we have:
1. President McKay wasn't worthy of receiving an answer.
2. President McKay wasn't a Prophet and therefore wasn't communicating with God.
3. President McKay was told by God to lift the ban, but he ignored it.
4. President McKay was told by God to keep the ban in place.
5. President McKay prayed but no one was listening so he had to make his own mind up.

Can you think of other options that cannot be summarised by these 5 options?

President McKay was a prophet and was worthy to receive an answer from God, but didn't receive any "impression" one way or the other. He was left to himself or possibly told to remain in a 'holding pattern'.

President David O Mckay laid the foundation for change in the priesthood policy.

Prior to McKay’s tenure as President priesthood ordination was denied to all people who were considered Negroid in appearance. He narrowed the policy to a restriction on those of black African descent, thus opening priesthood ordination to Fijians, Australian aborigines, and Egyptians. He also eliminated a policy in South Africa that restricted the priesthood to only those who could prove they had no African ancestry (p. 80-81). The policy was changed so that ordination is withheld only in cases where black ancestry was certain. He also made it possible for black children adopted by white couples to be sealed to their new parents, and that the children could enter the temple for the ceremony.

Though President McKay was not especially friendly toward the civil rights movement there is some evidence that under the influence of Apostle Hugh B. Brown (who was strongly sympathetic towards civil rights) he theorized about altering the church’s policy on priesthood ordination. President McKay also had a special committee look into the history and scriptural basis for the priesthood ban. Leonard Arrington, who would later served as church historian, wrote “[the committee] concluded that there was no sound scriptural basis for the policy but that the church membership was not prepared for its reversal” (p. 80). President McKay also mentioned to others that he viewed the ordination issue as practice and not doctrine. A belief that was not universal among church leadership.

Chapter 4 of David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism

In order to lay a foundation one would think that the structure (the revelation) would have to come later.

Regards,
MG

[_Themis]

The ban is another big tell God has nothing to do with the LDS church. It makes no sense to believe God would want a priesthood ban on a group of people, who just happen to be hated and are bought and sold as slaves by white people in the US, who were born in a certain race. Blaming it on people like BY is no better. It makes no sense that someone who is claimed to be God's spokesperson would not stop any ban by simply communicating to the prophet from the start. Joseph claims an almost daily communications with divinity, and many of them are supposed to have actual physical beings showing up. God couldn't even be bothered to show up and tell Emma that Joseph was commanded to practice polygamy, yet was concerned enough to show up and threaten Joseph's life if he didn't. I don't think so.

[_consiglieri]

To Consig, please give us your take on 2 Nephi 5: 21. While you claim "some" LDS doctrine isn't racist, what you're insinuating is that "some" of it is. I contend the multiple references to dark/black skin in LDS doctrine is slam dunk cut and dry regarding its meaning, which would also explain why men with dark skin could not hold the priesthood until 1978. Please enlighten me with your knowledge of the subject.

I thought I had made it clear that I think Book of Mormon references to changing skin color appear to be intended to be understood literally.

All I did was mention the one passage where it talks about "scales of darkness falling from their eyes," observe that this could not possibly be intended literally, and asked whether a similar thing might be happening with the dark skin descriptions.

It was a question, thews. A question. Not a conclusion.

Once again, while I think the majority of skin color references in the Book of Mormon appear to be intended to be understood literally, the question raised by the "scales of darkness" passage is nevertheless an important point to make if we are to take the Book of Mormon text as a whole rather than merely cherry picking sections that support our predispositions.

I hope that disabuses you of your perennially false notions regarding my views in this regard.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_bcspace]

please give us your take on 2 Nephi 5: 21

I'm still waiting for someone, anyone at all, to make an actual case that 2 Nephi 5:21, or any of the verses in question, is racist. Been waiting for decades in fact. Did the curse here come because of black skin? Of course not.

[_Themis]

please give us your take on 2 Nephi 5: 21

I'm still waiting for someone, anyone at all, to make an actual case that 2 Nephi 5:21, or any of the verses in question, is racist. Been waiting for decades in fact. Did the curse here come because of black skin? Of course not.

It's been done. No one takes you seriously anymore. What an embarrassment you are to believing members.

[_consiglieri]

" Better sleep with a sober cannibal than a drunken Christian..

One of my many favorite quotes from Moby Dick, and one I last year transcribed into my little leather book of citations that I frequently take to church and read from when things are especially dull.

All the Best!

--Queequeglieri

[_consiglieri]

Just to be clear so you don't think I'm a ravaging wolf in sheep's clothing, I'm sure your brand of Christianity is just as f****d up as Mormonism. The Bible is easily as racist (or worse), and every bit as internally inconsistent as the Book of Mormon. Please apply the same standards of reason to all religions that you do to the Mormons.

Memo to Thews--It's "ravening" wolf.

Maybe you should spend more time in Bible study.

[_bcspace]

It's been done. No one takes you seriously anymore. What an embarrassment you are to believing members.

It's never been done. If it were, you'd show it right now. And there's only a limited few on these boards who accept it despite all evidence to the contrary. I find that most people in real life, including blacks, when the actual verses and doctrine are shown to them as compared to your yellow journalism, agree it's not racism.

Not to worry. Irrationality is not all that uncommon. You'll still fit right in.