Jesus Apostles juxtopse Joseph's

[_Mittens]

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims7.htm#original

Today at Church we learned about the death's of the original 12 Apostles and how this was a witness to the fact Jesus was who he said he was . All but John the beloved were killed and tortured for their witness of their testimony of Jesus. While Joseph Smith's 12 Apostles all were excommunicated or lived sorted lives. Parley Pratt was killed but only for taking a man's wife who killed him. Yet Jesus said even marrying a divorced women was adultery something Joseph and Parley were both guilty of, not marrying divorced women but married women.


LDS claim that the true church must be built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets. But, the LDS church did not have twelve apostles until five years after their church was organized! Do builders build a building for five years before laying the foundation? The LDS began ordaining their first twelve apostles on February 14, 1835 (D.H.C. Vol. II, pp. 180-200). The "three witnesses" of the B. of M. (who later apostatized) were elders and high priests in the LDS Church when they ordained the "twelve" to the higher office of "apostle." Mormons today cannot ordain someone to a higher office than what they themselves hold. The three witnesses of the B. of M. conferred the office of apostle on the twelve by "the laying on of hands" as they prayed prophetic prayers over each man separately. The apostleship they conferred is just as valid as their prophetic prayers given as they ordained the first LDS apostles. The following are some of those prophecies recorded in the D.H.C., Vol. II, pp. 188-191.

1. Lyman E. Johnson: "no power of the enemy shall prevent him from going forth and doing the work of the Lord and that he shall live until the gathering is accomplished... and he shall be like unto Enoch; ...Satan shall tremble before him and he shall see the Savior come and stand upon the earth with power and great glory." But, three years later, he apostatized and "was cut off (excommunicated) from the church" (D.H.C., Vol. III, p. 20). Furthermore, the "gathering" to Missouri (D.&C. 84:1-5), still has not taken place, and he was not like Enoch who never died (Gen. 5:24), because Johnson died in 1856 (Deseret News Church Almanac, 1989-1990, p. 49).

2. Heber C. Kimball: "many millions may be converted by his instrumentality; that angels may waft him from place to place, and that he may stand unto the coming of our Lord." But, there weren't even 85,000 Mormons when "Pres. Heber C. Kimball, first counselor to Pres. Brigham Young, died in Salt Lake City, June 22, 1868" (Essentials in Church History, p. 540). The LDS Church finally reached 1,000,000 members in 1947 which was 79 years after Kimball died. There is no record of angels "wafting" Kimball anywhere even once, and the Lord did not come before Kimball died!

3. Orson Hyde: "he 'may' (original Millennial Star, Vol. 15, p. 206 says 'shall') stand on the earth and bring souls till Christ comes... And may he be (original: 'he shall be') like one of the three Nephites." The three Nephites did not die, according to B. of M. III Nephi 28, but Orson Hyde died on November 28, 1878, in Spring City, Utah (Church Chronology by Andrew Jensen, p. 103). Thus, Hyde did not stand on the earth till Christ came.

4. David W. Patten: "May he continue till the Lord comes." But he was shot and killed on October 25, 1838 (D.H.C., Vol. III, pp. 170-171). So, he did not continue till the Lord came.

5. Luke S. Johnson: "The nations shall tremble before him... He shall bear testimony to the kings of the earth... The Ancient of Days shall pronounce this blessing, that he has been faithful and [he shall] speak all their tongues where he shall go." But, Joseph Smith recorded, "I returned to Kirtland on or about the tenth of December (1837). During my absence in Missouri, Warren Parrish, John F. Boynton, Luke S. Johnson, Joseph Coe and some others united together for the overthrow of the church. Soon after my return this dissenting band openly and publicly renounced the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (D.H.C., Vol. II, p. 528). If the prophecy was true, Luke Johnson was "faithful" when he renounced the LDS Church! There is no record of any nation trembling before him or of him bearing testimony to the kings of the earth or speaking many foreign languages.

6. William E. M'Lellin: "He may be spared until the Saints are gathered; ... the tempter shall not overcome him... his days may be prolonged until the coming of the Son of Man." But M'Lellin died April 24, 1883 (Deseret News Church Almanac 1995-1996, p. 51), and the Saints still haven't gathered (to Missouri) more than 100 years after his death. Thus, his days were not prolonged until the Son of Man came. It also sounds like the tempter overcame him because Joseph Smith said, "William E. M'Lellin was finally excommunicated from the church at Far West. Thence forward he took an active part in the persecution of the Saints in Missouri" (D.H.C., Vol. III, pp. 31-32).

7. John F. Boynton: "Thou shalt overcome all evils that are in the world... and in the flesh." But, Boynton was excommunicated from the LDS Church just two and a half years after this prophecy, in the fall of 1837 (Deseret New Church Almanac, 1995-1996, p. 51) See Luke S. Johnson prophecy (#5) for more about Boynton. Why did the LDS Church excommunicate Boynton if he overcame all evils in the world?

8. William Smith: "He shall be preserved and remain on earth until Christ shall come to take vengeance on the wicked." But he was excommunicated on October 19, 1845. He died November 13, 1893, at the age of 82 (Deseret News Church Almanac, 1995-1996, p. 51). The Lord still has not come to take vengeance on the wicked.

It does not take a theologian to see that all these are false prophecies. Heber C. Kimball said, "after we had been ordained by these brethren (the three witnesses), the First Presidency (including Joseph Smith) laid their hands on us and confirmed these blessings and ordinations, and likewise predicted many things which should come to pass" (Times and Seasons, Vol. VI, p. 868).

Can a true prophet of God "confirm" false prophecies? Or can "true apostles" be ordained by men giving false prophecies as they ordain them apostles? Yet, that is how the LDS ordained their first "Twelve Apostles." And, every LDS Apostle today was ordained by another LDS Apostle who ultimately was ordained by one of the original twelve LDS Apostles!

Today when a Mormon apostle dies, the remaining apostles select a successor who must be accepted by a vote of the membership at their annual or semi-annual conference. But, the apostles Christ chose were apostles whether or not anyone recognized them as such! Furthermore, Christ's apostles were not excommunicated as were half of the original LDS apostles!

Since Mormonism began, the LDS have had around ninety "twelve apostles." Today they have twelve apostles plus three men in the First Presidency who were apostles when they were chosen to be in the First Presidency. That makes fifteen apostles - not twelve. Their scripture also says that the Apostle John and the three Nephite apostles never died (B. of M. III Nephi 28; D. & C. 7:1-8). That makes four more apostles to count! Because the three Nephites are called "disciples" in the B. of M., some LDS claim that they were not apostles. But, if they were not apostles, Jesus established His church in America without "apostles and prophets." Therefore the B. of M. is a record of an apostate church or it is not necessary to build the church upon "apostles and prophets" as the LDS now teach! On the other hand, if the twelve B. of M. disciples were apostles, Jesus had twelve in Palestine and twelve in America at the same time. Therefore, the "true church" had 24 apostles, not twelve!

II Cor. 11:13 warns of "false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ." Jesus also commended the Church at Ephesus, saying, "thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars" (Rev. 2:2). Since the Bible warns about false apostles, those who claim to be apostles should be "tried" even as the church at Ephesus tried them!


"I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Twenty Seventh Wife, Irving Wallace, p. 101.

and Orson Pratt was condemned for writing the Seer .

Not sure the total number of the Mormon religion's Apostles in total but haven't heard of any killed for their faith . Can a Mormon tell a story of any killed for the Joseph Smith's teachings ?

http://youtu.be/vrYVTpsAGYk

[_CameronMO]

Thanks for posting that here. It was an interesting read.

[_son of Ishmael]

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims7.htm#original

Today at Church we learned about the death's of the original 12 Apostles and how this was a witness to the fact Jesus was who he said he was . All but John the beloved were killed and tortured for their witness of their testimony of Jesus. While Joseph Smith's 12 Apostles all were excommunicated or lived sorted lives. Parley Pratt was killed but only for taking a man's wife who killed him. Yet Jesus said even marrying a divorced women was adultery something Joseph and Parley were both guilty of, not marrying divorced women but married women.


LDS claim that the true church must be built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets. But, the LDS church did not have twelve apostles until five years after their church was organized! Do builders build a building for five years before laying the foundation? The LDS began ordaining their first twelve apostles on February 14, 1835 (D.H.C. Vol. II, pp. 180-200). The "three witnesses" of the B. of M. (who later apostatized) were elders and high priests in the LDS Church when they ordained the "twelve" to the higher office of "apostle." Mormons today cannot ordain someone to a higher office than what they themselves hold. The three witnesses of the B. of M. conferred the office of apostle on the twelve by "the laying on of hands" as they prayed prophetic prayers over each man separately. The apostleship they conferred is just as valid as their prophetic prayers given as they ordained the first LDS apostles. The following are some of those prophecies recorded in the D.H.C., Vol. II, pp. 188-191.

1. Lyman E. Johnson: "no power of the enemy shall prevent him from going forth and doing the work of the Lord and that he shall live until the gathering is accomplished... and he shall be like unto Enoch; ...Satan shall tremble before him and he shall see the Savior come and stand upon the earth with power and great glory." But, three years later, he apostatized and "was cut off (excommunicated) from the church" (D.H.C., Vol. III, p. 20). Furthermore, the "gathering" to Missouri (D.&C. 84:1-5), still has not taken place, and he was not like Enoch who never died (Gen. 5:24), because Johnson died in 1856 (Deseret News Church Almanac, 1989-1990, p. 49).

2. Heber C. Kimball: "many millions may be converted by his instrumentality; that angels may waft him from place to place, and that he may stand unto the coming of our Lord." But, there weren't even 85,000 Mormons when "Pres. Heber C. Kimball, first counselor to Pres. Brigham Young, died in Salt Lake City, June 22, 1868" (Essentials in Church History, p. 540). The LDS Church finally reached 1,000,000 members in 1947 which was 79 years after Kimball died. There is no record of angels "wafting" Kimball anywhere even once, and the Lord did not come before Kimball died!

3. Orson Hyde: "he 'may' (original Millennial Star, Vol. 15, p. 206 says 'shall') stand on the earth and bring souls till Christ comes... And may he be (original: 'he shall be') like one of the three Nephites." The three Nephites did not die, according to B. of M. III Nephi 28, but Orson Hyde died on November 28, 1878, in Spring City, Utah (Church Chronology by Andrew Jensen, p. 103). Thus, Hyde did not stand on the earth till Christ came.

4. David W. Patten: "May he continue till the Lord comes." But he was shot and killed on October 25, 1838 (D.H.C., Vol. III, pp. 170-171). So, he did not continue till the Lord came.

5. Luke S. Johnson: "The nations shall tremble before him... He shall bear testimony to the kings of the earth... The Ancient of Days shall pronounce this blessing, that he has been faithful and [he shall] speak all their tongues where he shall go." But, Joseph Smith recorded, "I returned to Kirtland on or about the tenth of December (1837). During my absence in Missouri, Warren Parrish, John F. Boynton, Luke S. Johnson, Joseph Coe and some others united together for the overthrow of the church. Soon after my return this dissenting band openly and publicly renounced the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (D.H.C., Vol. II, p. 528). If the prophecy was true, Luke Johnson was "faithful" when he renounced the LDS Church! There is no record of any nation trembling before him or of him bearing testimony to the kings of the earth or speaking many foreign languages.

6. William E. M'Lellin: "He may be spared until the Saints are gathered; ... the tempter shall not overcome him... his days may be prolonged until the coming of the Son of Man." But M'Lellin died April 24, 1883 (Deseret News Church Almanac 1995-1996, p. 51), and the Saints still haven't gathered (to Missouri) more than 100 years after his death. Thus, his days were not prolonged until the Son of Man came. It also sounds like the tempter overcame him because Joseph Smith said, "William E. M'Lellin was finally excommunicated from the church at Far West. Thence forward he took an active part in the persecution of the Saints in Missouri" (D.H.C., Vol. III, pp. 31-32).

7. John F. Boynton: "Thou shalt overcome all evils that are in the world... and in the flesh." But, Boynton was excommunicated from the LDS Church just two and a half years after this prophecy, in the fall of 1837 (Deseret New Church Almanac, 1995-1996, p. 51) See Luke S. Johnson prophecy (#5) for more about Boynton. Why did the LDS Church excommunicate Boynton if he overcame all evils in the world?

8. William Smith: "He shall be preserved and remain on earth until Christ shall come to take vengeance on the wicked." But he was excommunicated on October 19, 1845. He died November 13, 1893, at the age of 82 (Deseret News Church Almanac, 1995-1996, p. 51). The Lord still has not come to take vengeance on the wicked.

It does not take a theologian to see that all these are false prophecies. Heber C. Kimball said, "after we had been ordained by these brethren (the three witnesses), the First Presidency (including Joseph Smith) laid their hands on us and confirmed these blessings and ordinations, and likewise predicted many things which should come to pass" (Times and Seasons, Vol. VI, p. 868).

Can a true prophet of God "confirm" false prophecies? Or can "true apostles" be ordained by men giving false prophecies as they ordain them apostles? Yet, that is how the LDS ordained their first "Twelve Apostles." And, every LDS Apostle today was ordained by another LDS Apostle who ultimately was ordained by one of the original twelve LDS Apostles!

Today when a Mormon apostle dies, the remaining apostles select a successor who must be accepted by a vote of the membership at their annual or semi-annual conference. But, the apostles Christ chose were apostles whether or not anyone recognized them as such! Furthermore, Christ's apostles were not excommunicated as were half of the original LDS apostles!

Since Mormonism began, the LDS have had around ninety "twelve apostles." Today they have twelve apostles plus three men in the First Presidency who were apostles when they were chosen to be in the First Presidency. That makes fifteen apostles - not twelve. Their scripture also says that the Apostle John and the three Nephite apostles never died (B. of M. III Nephi 28; D. & C. 7:1-8). That makes four more apostles to count! Because the three Nephites are called "disciples" in the B. of M., some LDS claim that they were not apostles. But, if they were not apostles, Jesus established His church in America without "apostles and prophets." Therefore the B. of M. is a record of an apostate church or it is not necessary to build the church upon "apostles and prophets" as the LDS now teach! On the other hand, if the twelve B. of M. disciples were apostles, Jesus had twelve in Palestine and twelve in America at the same time. Therefore, the "true church" had 24 apostles, not twelve!

II Cor. 11:13 warns of "false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ." Jesus also commended the Church at Ephesus, saying, "thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars" (Rev. 2:2). Since the Bible warns about false apostles, those who claim to be apostles should be "tried" even as the church at Ephesus tried them!


"I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Twenty Seventh Wife, Irving Wallace, p. 101.

and Orson Pratt was condemned for writing the Seer .

Not sure the total number of the Mormon religion's Apostles in total but haven't heard of any killed for their faith . Can a Mormon tell a story of any killed for the Joseph Smith's teachings ?

http://youtu.be/vrYVTpsAGYk

Not quite true. Depending on where you read it, Judas either hung himself or fell to his death. Also how do you know that the other 10 were tortured and killed? I did not think the New Testament went into detail on that.

[_moksha]

Parley Pratt was killed but only for taking a man's wife who killed him.

Didn't someone right now say that wives will be the death of us?

Yet Jesus said even marrying a divorced women was adultery....

Sure hope this wasn't in reference to any missing frosting.

[_ZelphtheGreat]

LDS claim that the true church must be built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets. But, the LDS church did not have twelve apostles until five years after their church was organized!

Joseph was an ignorant and unlearned Farm boy. He did not learn to count to twelve until that time.

[_seven7up]

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims7.htm#original

Today at Church we learned about the death's of the original 12 Apostles and how this was a witness to the fact Jesus was who he said he was . All but John the beloved were killed and tortured for their witness of their testimony of Jesus. While Joseph Smith's 12 Apostles all were excommunicated or lived sorted lives. ....

Whenever I am tempted to criticize the leaders of the LDS church, I check myself by asking this question, "Would I have done, or would I do better than this individual?"

Now, this is different than looking at hindsight, which makes it seem easy. What if I grew up in the time, culture, environment as this individual. How would I have done in their position?

I have been discouraged from my own failures in my own life. How God can use me? Let's look at the scriptures to see the people He used in ancient times.

*Noah who got drunk and conducted himself in a lewd way.

*Abraham doubted God, lied about his wife and then committed adultery.

*Isaac did the same thing with his wife Rebekah and lied to Abimelech.

*Jacob who extorted the birthright from Esau, deceived his father and who raised a whole bunch of immoral children.

*Joseph was hated by all his brothers because he was a mama's boy (daddy's boy).

*Moses was a murderer. Moses acted in pride trying to steal God's glory and struck the rock instead of obediently speaking to the rock as God said and he never entered the promised land he had led the people to.

*Aaron the high priest who led Israel in the worship of the golden calf and the accompanying orgy.

*God told Joshua to wipe out the Gibeonites but he was so deceived by the Gibeonites that he made a treaty with them instead of destroying them and they hung around to trouble Israel endlessly.

*Gideon had no confidence in himself and even less confidence in God's plan and God's power.

*Samson was marked as a man with a lustful love for a wretched woman.

*Ruth was in the Messianic line and was an accursed Moabitess.

*Every time David he saw a lady he liked he married her. Didn't matter how many others he had. An adulterer, a murderer, a lousy father and a man with such bloody hands God wouldn't even let him build a temple.

*Solomon the world's leading polygamist.

God uses people like this.

*God used Isaiah who had put his trust in a human king.

*God used Ezekiel who was a brash tough strong-minded crusty say-what-you-think priest.

*God used Daniel who was educated in a pagan country and taught the wisdom of the bitter and hasty Chaldeans.

*God used Hosea who married a prostitute.

*God used Jonah who defied Him in direct disobedience. And then when the Gentiles were converted he didn't like it one bit.

*And God used Habakkuk who questioned the divine plan.

*God used Elijah who could handle 850 false priests and prophets but ran like a maniac from one woman.. .Jezebel.

*God used Paul who killed Christians.

*God used Timothy who was ashamed of Jesus Christ, and had to be told so by Paul.

And when you look at the twelve apostle, you see another group of imperfect, a pitiful bunch, just like the rest of us. God is in the business of accepting flawed servants, people because everyone is flawed.

I will discuss the twelve that Jesus chose in the next post.

-7up

[_seven7up]

Jesus Apostles juxtopse Joseph's

First, let's start by saying that Christ's apostles were with him during his mortal ministry. They heard from the Master himself , teaching, providing example, and performing miracles. Keep in mind that Peter, James and John had been present as witnesses for the transfiguration of Jesus Christ.

So, while the comparison is not quite fair, I will humor you a little bit more.

Let's talk about when things started to get tough. Judas was in the process of betraying Jesus. By the way, Judas knew Jesus more intimately than almost any other human being on the face of the earth, and he still betrayed Jesus. Does that reflect poorly on Jesus in your opinion?

Now, the apostles were in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus went to pray, and the Lord comes back and He said to Peter, the leader, "What? Could you not watch with Me one hour?" You can't even stay awake one hour, and it indicates that He was gone for a brief period of time. Can't you be mentally alert for one hour? Then it happens again. Well, you know the story. Isn't it amazing that these men were so indifferent? Not a good start.

When things looked bad, in Mark 14, it says in verse 50, "All the disciples forsook Him and fled."

This was after they all agreed, "O Lord, we'll go with you even to death...O Lord, we'll never be offended, we'll never deny You...we'll be faithful," They weren't. When the trial came, they ran. Later, we see that Peter denies Christ 3 times.

Again, does this reflect poorly on Jesus, or on those who forsook Him?

-7up

[_Mittens]

seven7up said Abraham lied yet he failed to say it was God who told him to lie

Abraham 2:

22 And it came to pass when I was come near to enter into Egypt, the Lord asaid unto me: Behold, Sarai, thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon;

23 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see her, they will say—She is his wife; and they will kill you, but they will save her alive; therefore see that ye do on this wise:

24 Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live.

25 And it came to pass that I, Abraham, told Sarai, my wife, all that the Lord had said unto me—Therefore say unto them, I pray thee, thou art my sister, that it may be well with me for thy sake, and my soul shall live because of thee.

[_Bazooka]

Jesus Apostles juxtopse Joseph's

First, let's start by saying that Christ's apostles were with him during his mortal ministry.

-7up

I'm pretty sure the Apostle Paul wasn't....

[_Bazooka]

Now, the apostles were in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus went to pray, and the Lord comes back and He said to Peter, the leader, "What? Could you not watch with Me one hour?" You can't even stay awake one hour, and it indicates that He was gone for a brief period of time. Can't you be mentally alert for one hour? Then it happens again. Well, you know the story. Isn't it amazing that these men were so indifferent? Not a good start.

-7up

Given the magnificence that Jesus is portrayed as having, why would the people He chose to be closest to Him be so indifferent to His trials and tribulations....especially as they written so dramatically by people who weren't there.

41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

https://www.LDS.org/scriptures/New Testament/luke/22?lang=eng
Keeping in mind those Apostles were within sight of Him the whole time this was going down, yet still they fell asleep?