Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[The Stig]

I agree there's nothing to be done about it now. I just don't think it's fair that the focus seems to be on how Rosebud didn't backdown and stop when John should have done the same.

One thing I just noticed in John's email to her. He says
So I think consig's wrong to suggest she could have kept her job if she had just backed down. John told her he can't work with a former lover, so he wanted her gone no matter how she would have behaved.

Yes, but in light of the fact that the board invited her to reapply as an independent contractor, I am not confident that “work together” means “for the same organization.” It may mean, “at the same events,” vel sim. In any case, she was offered to opportunity of applying as an independent contractor. She was obviously not frozen out because John said that stuff. On the other hand, “have sex with me” is pretty unambiguous.

You clearly haven't dated in a while.

[Esme]

In consig's podcast Natasha Helfer states the plan was to offer Rosebud to apply to a 1099 position but she wouldn't be able to return to the work she had been doing due to proximity with JD. Most likely would have been given a job doing something unrelated to MS.

Yes, but in light of the fact that the board invited her to reapply as an independent contractor, I am not confident that “work together” means “for the same organization.” It may mean, “at the same events,” vel sim. In any case, she was offered to opportunity of applying as an independent contractor. She was obviously not frozen out because John said that stuff. On the other hand, “have sex with me” is pretty unambiguous.

Here's a little more from the email:

We can't work together and be former lovers. And I can't be your lover any more. And there's no where else in the organization for you to go. Because I'm the only employee.

John tells here there is no where else in the organization for her to go. If she got rehired, what would she be doing, exactly? I haven't read anything in the docs or heard anything from anywhere else that says what she would be able to do.

[drumdude]

I've finally figured out the solution to the conundrum.

1) Fire John Dehlin.
2) Leave A on to run the Mormon Stories ship.
3) Mormon Stories dies.
4) John reorganizes Mormon Stories under a different name and picks up where he left off.


I know none of this has anything to do with sex, but according to those calling this sexual harassment, this solution prevents any sexual harassment from occurring while ironically ending up in exactly the same outcome. Sexual harassment is weird, huh?

[Lem]

...Affair or no, Rosebud would have been fired...

I completely agree with that. I wish they had not taken the easy way out, which, assuming your business assessment is accurate, they may have thought they were doing when they fired her over the inappropriate relationship between a superior and a subordinate. I doubt they were that prescient, however. Either way, that makes the firing due to the affair an even more sordid episode. Sexually harassing a person out instead of firing them for cause is a demeaning way to do business.

If they had not fired her and instead, disciplined JD in some way for his inappropriate exercise of a superior position, I fully agree with your assessment that she would have not survived the coming competitive environment. My guess she would have inappropriately tried to restart the relationship, and assuming Dehlin didn't misbehave (big assumption) but instead reported it immediately, they could have fired her for cause. Alternatively, if her event strategy failed, not continuing to give her a position would have accomplished the same thing.

Just because the end result might have been the same in no way obviates the responsibility to conduct one's business with integrity.

[Esme]

So John owns the groups, but Rosebud believes she owns CTW, which is based on the groups, and she feels that by not giving her the groups, John is taking away her business project and her social work. She isn't asking for a settlement at this point, she just wants to run her CTW business by herself, leveraging John's name and reputation in the community. He doesn't want to lend his name or business to CTW anymore, but she can't let go of it and she doesn't believe she can achieve her designs without John giving her control over the communities that he, personally started and owns. THAT is what this is all about, not sexual harassment.

You know, I'm not so sure CTW was seen at the time as such a financial loser. You keep saying that JD and Open Stories Foundation obviously saw it, but I can't find it written anywhere in the docs. Maybe I missed it somewhere?

What I find is that John tells her the conferences have been pretty financially neutral, i.e.

our cash position is ok right now ($50k), but it's not fabulous. And it's pretty close to where it was before you came on the scene (if you trail at least 12 months back ... there are ups and downs in any business, of course)

Yeah, it maybe it's not a clear winner and clearly profitable, but it's not a clear loser either and he doesn't say it has been or will be losing them money.

Also, he proposes that people tell everyone:

1) John and [redacted] needed to focus on school, 2) MS/Open Stories Foundation were not able to sustain the conferences and communities for time/energy/personal/legal reasons, 3) John and­ [redacted] were not able to work together any more, due to interpersonal issues, and due to strategy differences, so 4) the Open Stories Foundation downsized.

He says "time/energy/personal/legal reasons," but does NOT say financial reasons. Surely he would have included that if it was true?

Also, in the transition emails, there was talk of JD handing over the CTW website to Rosebud and unbanning her from all of the Facebook communities (except for the main MS and Open Stories Foundation ones). So it sounds like she could have gotten the things you mention above--the things she really wanted--and JD and Open Stories Foundation were willing to give them to her.

[Dr Moore]

You know, I'm not so sure CTW was seen at the time as such a financial loser. You keep saying that JD and Open Stories Foundation obviously saw it, but I can't find it written anywhere in the docs. Maybe I missed it somewhere?

Breaking even on conferences, after paying for travel and time, sure isn't a winner. It doesn't scale, is a pain in the ass every year, and as Rosebud admits later in her 2018 interview, each one became a bigger nightmare thematically. The speaker and attendance situation, fractured along lines of belief/disbelief and contemporary themes such as LGBTQ, at best made these things a labor of love. On the contrary, John's podcast was repeatable, scalable, and allowed for a common thread to work through believers and non-believers. He eventually picked a side, but yes I'm totally convinced that he and Open Stories Foundation were souring on conference events and their underlying communities well before Rosebud turned fatal attraction on John.

Also, in the transition emails, there was talk of JD handing over the CTW website to Rosebud and unbanning her from all of the Facebook communities (except for the main MS and Open Stories Foundation ones). So it sounds like she could have gotten the things you mention about--the things she really wanted--and JD and Open Stories Foundation were willing to give them to her.

She made that plea many times, but ultimately John seems to have forced Open Stories Foundation to admit that it was John, not Open Stories Foundation, who owned the Facebook groups from which grassroots organization for the CTW events took place. This comingling of assets is common in startups and shows us that despite having a 501(c)(3) structure, and a non-employee board, the whole operation was just a messy scrabble of John trying to make a living for himself while working through grad school.

[Kukulkan]

In consig's podcast Natasha Helfer states the plan was to offer Rosebud to apply to a 1099 position but she wouldn't be able to return to the work she had been doing due to proximity with JD. Most likely would have been given a job doing something unrelated to MS.

Yes, but in light of the fact that the board invited her to reapply as an independent contractor, I am not confident that “work together” means “for the same organization.” It may mean, “at the same events,” vel sim. In any case, she was offered to opportunity of applying as an independent contractor. She was obviously not frozen out because John said that stuff. On the other hand, “have sex with me” is pretty unambiguous.

Here's a little more from the email:

We can't work together and be former lovers. And I can't be your lover any more. And there's no where else in the organization for you to go. Because I'm the only
employee.

John tells here there is no where else in the organization for her to go. If she got rehired, what would she be doing, exactly? I haven't read anything in the docs or heard anything from anywhere else that says what she would be able to do.

I can't access the email because it was taken down for now until redactions can be properly done, so I can't read with context. We have JD saying this, and we have Natasha Helfer saying that if she was rehired she would have to do something not related to MS. Either way, JD felt that his working relationship with her was not tenable due to her continued requests for sex. You have what JD says vs what the board did. The board asked her to resign and would allow her to reapply as a 1099 contractor. As far as we can tell the board was doing its best to act in good faith and offer both a chance for some sort of reemployment at Open Stories Foundation. JD resigned as he was asked, reapplied and was given a position. Rosebud did not, was terminated as she was warned would happen and was not given a position.

[Kukulkan]

Also Esme how do you still have access to the documents?

[Kishkumen]

John tells here there is no where else in the organization for her to go. If she got rehired, what would she be doing, exactly? I haven't read anything in the docs or heard anything from anywhere else that says what she would be able to do.

Yes, well, that turned out to be untrue, no? And it probably also placed his head on the chopping block with the board. So they are both told to resign and both invited to reapply as independent contractors.

I agree that he should not have said that, and that would unequivocally qualify as sexual harassment under the new Open Stories Foundation policy, albeit not under Title VII.

John is a very sloppy and emotional person. I would never work for him. Frankly his behavior pisses me off. He should never have gotten involved with Rosebud, and he should never have made her feel like she was out of a job because of their affair.

[Esme]

Here's more from the email:

You can't run a strategy plan for Mormon Stories without my participation. That makes no sense. You can't overhaul our web sites without my participation. I am at the heart of this organization for better or for worse, just like Oprah is for hers. And I'm asking you to please not play games with me or with the board and try to operate against my will. Please, [redacted]. Please don't do that. That said, you are welcome to take whomever you wish with you -- Joanna, Brent Beal, Christian -- whomever. I highly, highly encourage you to start your own thing with whomever you want. I'm not taking away from you your ability to work in the field of Mormonism. I'm just telling you that I need you to not work here with me any more.

I need you just to go. I need MS to contract. I need to have no more [redacted] drama. I need to have no more conferences for a few years. I need to not have to manage you, or other things outside of the bare bones, self-sustaining essentials (like MS and DanW's MM). I need things to be really, really simple, or I'll never finish my Ph.D. You can't run this without me. You can't. Because it's my organization at the end of the day. At least as it is now. Someday we may have a meaningfully participatory board. but we don't have that now, and I don't have the time to interact with such a board. I don't have time to manage you - and it makes no sense for you to manage things without my support. I need us to downsize. Small footprint. I need simple, self sustaining, scalable projects (NOT like conferences, or even MMH) -- and I need everything else to go dormant until I can resume management of things after I graduate. So there's no way that you can keep working as leading the Open Stories Foundation without my involvement, and I don't have time to be involved at the level you are wanting to operate.

He's telling her she can't do any of the things she was doing because it would involve working with him.

And he wants to downsize. No more side projects.

If she gets rehired, what is she supposed to do?