I think he was just being kind. Saying "for a few years" in a startup is not dissimilar from saying "maybe forever." At a minimum, he acknowledges to rosebud that the events are too taxing on him. She should have taken that as a cue, or, if she had any sensibility, asked him more questions about what he really thought about the events. Notice how she never asks him for any advice, in any of their exchanges? She thinks she has the answers. She doesn't.
Telling people the conferences were financial losers is such and easy and understandable explanation. Why didn't John just use that as the reason if that were the reality?
Instead his reasons are all over the place...this, that, and the other thing, and also this.... I mean, in a podcast he says he was concerned that people were having sex and doing drugs. There was no reason to bring up any of that.
I'm open to the idea that there could have been multiple reasons for wanting to end the conferences. They were time consuming AND unwieldy AND he didn't want to work with Rosebud anymore. But he never says they are financial losers. At worst, he says they are financially neutral.
I'm mean, you could be totally right that they would be financial losers. But I'm just looking at what he said at the time and I think you're reading things into the history that he never actually said.
Last edited by Esme on Thu May 13, 2021 12:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
Esme I see what you are getting at and I agree with you that despite the board offering for her to reapply there most likely was not a place at Open Stories Foundation for Rosebud. You can't expect to press your superior for sex after they have ended the affair and expect to stay at the organization you both work for.
I think it's very important that there was most likely not a place for her and she knew it.
It seems like several people have been saying that JD and Rosebud were treated fairly because they were both given the option to resign and the option to reapply.
But it doesn't seem fair to tell someone they are free to apply for a position that doesn't exist.
Esme I see what you are getting at and I agree with you that despite the board offering for her to reapply there most likely was not a place at Open Stories Foundation for Rosebud. You can't expect to press your superior for sex after they have ended the affair and expect to stay at the organization you both work for.
I think it's very important that there was most likely not a place for her and she knew it.
It seems like several people have been saying that JD and Rosebud were treated fairly because they were both given the option to resign and the option to reapply.
But it doesn't seem fair to tell someone they are free to apply for a position that doesn't exist.
Agreed. This whole situation was handled in a terrible and messy way.
"I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -Joseph Smith
Also what is the date on this email? Is it the Aug 10th one?
Sorry, I'm getting a little lost myself since I'm replying to multiple people and quoting from multiple docs. If you're referring to this part that I quoted:
You can't run a strategy plan for Mormon Stories without my participation. That makes no sense. You can't overhaul our web sites without my participation. I am at the heart of this organization for better or for worse, just like Oprah is for hers. And I'm asking you to please not play games with me or with the board and try to operate against my will. Please, [redacted]. Please don't do that. That said, you are welcome to take whomever you wish with you -- Joanna, Brent Beal, Christian -- whomever. I highly, highly encourage you to start your own thing with whomever you want. I'm not taking away from you your ability to work in the field of Mormonism. I'm just telling you that I need you to not work here with me any more.
I need you just to go. I need MS to contract. I need to have no more [redacted] drama. I need to have no more conferences for a few years. I need to not have to manage you, or other things outside of the bare bones, self-sustaining essentials (like MS and DanW's MM). I need things to be really, really simple, or I'll never finish my Ph.D. You can't run this without me. You can't. Because it's my organization at the end of the day. At least as it is now. Someday we may have a meaningfully participatory board. but we don't have that now, and I don't have the time to interact with such a board. I don't have time to manage you - and it makes no sense for you to manage things without my support. I need us to downsize. Small footprint. I need simple, self sustaining, scalable projects (NOT like conferences, or even MMH) -- and I need everything else to go dormant until I can resume management of things after I graduate. So there's no way that you can keep working as leading the Open Stories Foundation without my involvement, and I don't have time to be involved at the level you are wanting to operate.
Also what is the date on this email? Is it the Aug 10th one?
Sorry, I'm getting a little lost myself since I'm replying to multiple people and quoting from multiple docs. If you're referring to this part that I quoted:
You can't run a strategy plan for Mormon Stories without my participation. That makes no sense. You can't overhaul our web sites without my participation. I am at the heart of this organization for better or for worse, just like Oprah is for hers. And I'm asking you to please not play games with me or with the board and try to operate against my will. Please, [redacted]. Please don't do that. That said, you are welcome to take whomever you wish with you -- Joanna, Brent Beal, Christian -- whomever. I highly, highly encourage you to start your own thing with whomever you want. I'm not taking away from you your ability to work in the field of Mormonism. I'm just telling you that I need you to not work here with me any more.
I need you just to go. I need MS to contract. I need to have no more [redacted] drama. I need to have no more conferences for a few years. I need to not have to manage you, or other things outside of the bare bones, self-sustaining essentials (like MS and DanW's MM). I need things to be really, really simple, or I'll never finish my Ph.D. You can't run this without me. You can't. Because it's my organization at the end of the day. At least as it is now. Someday we may have a meaningfully participatory board. but we don't have that now, and I don't have the time to interact with such a board. I don't have time to manage you - and it makes no sense for you to manage things without my support. I need us to downsize. Small footprint. I need simple, self sustaining, scalable projects (NOT like conferences, or even MMH) -- and I need everything else to go dormant until I can resume management of things after I graduate. So there's no way that you can keep working as leading the Open Stories Foundation without my involvement, and I don't have time to be involved at the level you are wanting to operate.
That would be the Aug 10th email.
Thanks for the clarification. I should have downloaded the documents like you did. Smart move!
"I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -Joseph Smith
And whether JD or Open Stories Foundation owned the communities, the plan was to unban Rosebud from the local communities and then hand over the ownership of the local groups.
So Rosebud would be getting the things that were most valuable to her, no?
Can you post the links? If those terms were part of a pre-packaged exit agreement at some point, it seems that agreement broke down. Perhaps because Rosebud refused to sign the exit NDA? I don't have the sources you're citing from.
I am getting the quotes from "Email from Natasha entire board resigned and John voted back in Oct 16 2012_Redacted" and "Email apology and how to communicate changes October 15 2012 _Redacted."
The links are gone from the website, I'm working from copies of the documents I saved locally.
Telling people the conferences were financial losers is such and easy and understandable explanation. Why didn't John just use that as the reason if that were the reality?
Welcome to one of the top 5 founder frustrations. Plus, John was kind of an idiot in handling the climax of the situation.
In other words, if a superior has trouble ending an affair they had with a subordinate, they can expect to solve the problem by having the organization terminate the subordinate's employment. Another good example for why sexual harassment policies, such as the one the Open Stories Foundation now has, need to be in place.
Sorry my wording seemed one sided.
no worries, I assumed you were saying it with a dry sarcasm!
You can't expect to press your superior or subordinate for sex after they have ended the affair and expect to stay at the organization you both work for.
But yes I do believe that sexual harassments policies are incredibly important to foster a healthy and safe work environment.
Agreed. Open Stories Foundation apparently really needed one. Maybe if they had had the one they now have in place, it might have occurred to JD and or Rosebud to completely stop their engagement once Rosebud started working at the foundation. If, for example, either one had continued pressing and then the other one simply reported it without responding, the board could have legitimately disciplined the offender. Based on the actual and multiple inappropriate emails back and forth however, that seems like an extremely unlikely set of scenarios.
no worries, I assumed you were saying it with a dry sarcasm!
But yes I do believe that sexual harassments policies are incredibly important to foster a healthy and safe work environment.
Agreed. Open Stories Foundation apparently really needed one. Maybe if they had had the one they now have in place, it might have occurred to JD and or Rosebud to completely stop their engagement once Rosebud started working at the foundation. If, for example, either one had continued pressing and then the other one simply reported it without responding, the board could have legitimately disciplined the offender. Based on the actual and multiple inappropriate emails back and forth however, that seems like an extremely unlikely set of scenarios.
Yes, if any lessons can be learned from this situation is that having a comprehensive sexual harassment policy and employee conduct guidelines is integral to any organization that wants to prevent a situation like this from ever happening. Which I think any organization/company would.
"I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -Joseph Smith
Agreed. Open Stories Foundation apparently really needed one. Maybe if they had had the one they now have in place, it might have occurred to JD and or Rosebud to completely stop their engagement once Rosebud started working at the foundation. If, for example, either one had continued pressing and then the other one simply reported it without responding, the board could have legitimately disciplined the offender. Based on the actual and multiple inappropriate emails back and forth however, that seems like an extremely unlikely set of scenarios.
If JD had had any foresight (and when I say foresight, I mean common sense brains) he would have had that policy put in place before Rosebud set foot in the Open Stories Foundation for CYA purposes alone. But no. And here we are or more to the point, they are.
Of course, if he had had any foresight, he wouldn't have essentially welcomed her into the Open Stories Foundation to start with on even a volunteer basis. He failed to draw the line between his private and professional life from the get go. He failed to protect the Open Stories Foundation, himself, his family, Rosebud and her family by allowing her to cross the threshold from personal into professional spaces.
A visionary does not a manager make. Write that down.
LIGHT HAS A NAME
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF
Another good example for why sexual harassment policies, such as the one the Open Stories Foundation now has, need to be in place.
