I was referencing the US military's sexual harassment and sexual assault policies (subordinate commands can add various caveats once it's ran through legal). I'm generally unfamiliar with private sector sexual harassment policies because they can change from organization to organization.
- Doc
Well this was the biggest red herring of a post so far
Quote the relevant context then, otherwise i'm just going to be flapping around saying any old bobbins.
Jesus Christ you can't damned click on a link and read a post?
I have nothing to say about this particular case, which I haven't been following. I only check in on this thread now and then because I have friends and family with military connections, and this kind of stuff in the military is on the front burner right now.
As a technical question, is it really harassment, strictly speaking, for a superior to have an intimate relationship with a subordinate which is eagerly welcomed?
He's using a military-related context and uses, in context, military-related jargon.
2) Rosebud made multiple personal promises to me from the very start and throughout to “go away” if our relationship ever got to the point where it was hurting me or the Open Stories Foundation. This was a personal agreement we had made, which she agreed to prior to joining the board or coming on as an employee. I was only asking her to keep her promise. Frankly, I was stunned when she refused. I honestly thought I could trust her. But that was a personal plea.
My man. You just copped to a quid pro quo arrangement. You need to post some documentation that exonerates you contextually. Not a good look.
So the only way J D can beat a sexual harassment rap is to award R B the entire company?
That seems a little extreme to me.
Yeah, that's silly. However, he should've been fired and he should've started up a new venture ... if we're talking about taking personal and ethical responsibility for his misdeeds. There's not reason why a couple of board members could've resigned 'in protest' or whatever, and the go off with JD to start up The Real Mormon Stories PodcastTM. I'm sure some sort of rights to prior intellectual property and content could've gone with him, under some sort of agreement with the Open Stories Foundation.
Remember, if you go back to JD's "two options" email where he's game planning his exit from the Rosebud affair, he's not above perception management. It's actually kind of greasy if you go back and read it. They should've come up with a better exit strategy than they did.
2) Rosebud made multiple personal promises to me from the very start and throughout to “go away” if our relationship ever got to the point where it was hurting me or the Open Stories Foundation. This was a personal agreement we had made, which she agreed to prior to joining the board or coming on as an employee. I was only asking her to keep her promise. Frankly, I was stunned when she refused. I honestly thought I could trust her. But that was a personal plea.
My man. You just copped to a quid pro quo arrangement. You need to post some documentation that exonerates you contextually. Not a good look.
- Doc
Wow. All I am getting, repeatedly, from MS's posts is that he is still shocked that there were consequences to his bad behavior that he couldn't avoid because he couldn't exert control over another person.
First of all, thanks, John, for coming to share your unique perspective and valuable information.
I came into this whole issue with very strong opinions dragging me in different directions. On the one hand, after the various employment experiences I have had in which fraternization and sexual harassment screwed things up and ruined organizations and lives, I believe firmly in companies voluntarily putting in place a zero-tolerance policy on fraternization. You get romantic with a coworker and then you resign or you are fired. I know that sounds harsh, but I believe that adults should be expected to have the capacity to refrain from indulging themselves romantically on the job.
In my view, and especially after reading what JD has posted here recently, I can't get over the fact that both JD and Rosebud made catastrophically stupid errors up front that, in a different kind of situation, would and should have ended their employment if the policy regime I favor were in place. Everything that followed from their initial affair and entanglement in Open Stories Foundation was fruit from a poison tree--the poison tree of combining an extramarital affair with working together. Anyone can now hold up their preferred standard on sexual harassment to any interaction between JD and Rosebud and say: "See! This is X, that was wrong/right, and therefore A or B is culpable/innocent and should suffer/not suffer such and such consequences."
I have nothing against that as a mental exercise. It can be useful for us to look at what happened then through various lenses, but it is still just a kind of hypothetical exercise. For me the root problem with this set of events is mixing the affair with work from the outset. You can't really untangle or isolate anything that happened after that and cast disproportionate blame on one party. I am not saying that in no case would one be able to, but I really don't see a strong case for doing so here. Let's say Rosebud had tried to pull a way from JD, and he got angry and raped her. I don't think anyone would have any trouble seeing JD as deserving of harsh punishment. It would be obvious that this was criminal behavior.
Here, though, I am seeing people pick apart pieces of conversations between two people who from the outset established a kind of transactional romance in highly volatile circumstances. It was absolutely reckless and stupid because the terms of their "agreement" were unenforceable, relying entirely on the mindset of both partners staying static throughout. The hard truth here is that both people put themselves in real jeopardy by trusting each other under the influence of hormones when the stakes were extremely high. Everything that has come out of this disaster was built into the bad bet each of them made at the time. It was a really bad bet, and both people lost.
Now, regardless of our opinions regarding who is more culpable and why, we are struggling to decide or to persuade others of how we should feel about this situation. Rosebud is not going to achieve any legal redress for her bad bet. JD is going to continue to suffer the stress and humiliation of Rosebud's obsessive vendetta against him. Hopefully the rest of us learn from their mistakes and become convinced that fraternization on the job is just bad business and really stupid. Hopefully we learn that the power of sex is too distorting in the workplace, making everyone more vulnerable. Hopefully we become more cognizant of the value of (and committed to upholding) strict policies against sexual harassment and fraternization.
At the same time, I hope we don't let others manipulate us with this history. Sexists may want to harm Rosebud for daring to speak up. The LDS Church may want the Mormon Stories brand tarnished such that people don't listen to its many fine interviews. Various unscrupulous people may try to use this situation to build themselves up. JD may try to take too much comfort in his late justifications for his disastrously irresponsible and sexist behavior. Rosebud may continue to nurse her delusions and blame JD for her problems. We don't have to be on the side of anyone in their tainted agendas. We can wish everyone (including JD and Rosebud) to do and be better as the best outcome of a dreadful situation, not being distracted by those who have ulterior motives.
These are my reflections, and I have no doubt that they will meet with disagreement. Still, I wanted to lay it out there.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
2) Rosebud made multiple personal promises to me from the very start and throughout to “go away” if our relationship ever got to the point where it was hurting me or the Open Stories Foundation. This was a personal agreement we had made, which she agreed to prior to joining the board or coming on as an employee. I was only asking her to keep her promise. Frankly, I was stunned when she refused. I honestly thought I could trust her. But that was a personal plea.
My man. You just copped to a quid pro quo arrangement. You need to post some documentation that exonerates you contextually. Not a good look.
- Doc
I have to agree with that. Wow that is bad.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
