LittleNipper wrote:This lady is a self proclaimed atheist who believes that God had a wife. So, I will not be taken any lessons soon from her regarding God's Word.
But early Israelites absolutely believed God had a wife. No one had a problem with it at all until around 700 BCE. I think you better reconsider whence come your lessons on the Bible and the beliefs held by those who authored it.
LittleNipper wrote:This lady is a self proclaimed atheist who believes that God had a wife. So, I will not be taken any lessons soon from her regarding God's Word.
You are a self proclaimed theist who believes (as it was stated in the OP...) : "God just is ----take it or leave it. " So, I will not be taken any lessons soon from You regarding God's Word --- as I am not take any now, and I haven't ever taken since 2012.06.06.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
Bret Ripley wrote: Ezekiel 20 refers to a statute ordering child sacrifice,
but I would point out that in other places Ezekiel explicitly and repeatedly references idols, but not in the place where he describes YHWH's bad statutes. Moreover, shortly before this passage (verse 18) Ezekiel portrays YHWH as explicitly prohibiting Israel from defiling themselves with idols -- the very thing your proposed reading of verse 26 has YHWH commanding.
"I let them defile themselves with gifts to idols" ... As has been pointed out, "I defiled them" is more accurate, and "to idols" is an editorial insertion made by the translators of this version.
Cheers!
Bret and Roger, I lost the division and conflated your dispute, I ask your pardon. But I would like to ask both of you why you care if the command to kill and burn your first born son is to YHWY or some other. The question which is loud to me is why either way? I am feeling as if your house was burning and you are discussing whether to grab the green bucket or red for water.
What is the point of this sacrifice. It is defilement no matter to whom it is intended.
what possible meaning is there in the words, "that I might fill them with horror, so they would know that I am the Lord."
How is this going to make them know anything? Ezekiel is not a dumb man, some body hit him monentarily with a stupid stick?
There is a take on this I am thinking about but part of me thinks it might be a too easy escape. I am having second thoughts.
Gunnar wrote:That does not follow at all. If Christ's resurrection could have occurred even without incorporating the remains of his original corpse (for example, if it were entirely destroyed), that would have been an even more impressive and miraculous conquering of death, as I see it.
Interestingly enough, the doctrine of creation ex nihilo was born out of second century CE debates Christian apologists were having with Greco-Roman antagonists about the resurrection. At first, the resurrection was mocked on the grounds that the body decomposes and couldn't be reconstituted. Apologists argued that if God could create a human body from a drop of semen, he could reconstitute it from decomposed remains. This argument would be pushed to the extremes, and Christians would ultimately insist that God could reconstitute the body from nothing at all, which they saw as a helpful way to account for creation as well. This stood in direct contrast to the long accepted Greco-Roman notion that out of nothing comes nothing, and Christians were perfectly happy to go against them on that (even though they colluded with them on so much else).
That is another way of looking at that issue that had not previously occurred to me. Thanks for that additional perspective!
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
huckelberry wrote:Bret and Roger, I lost the division and conflated your dispute, I ask your pardon. But I would like to ask both of you why you care if the command to kill and burn your first born son is to YHWY or some other. The question which is loud to me is why either way? I am feeling as if your house was burning and you are discussing whether to grab the green bucket or red for water.
What is the point of this sacrifice. It is defilement no matter to whom it is intended.
what possible meaning is there in the words, "that I might fill them with horror, so they would know that I am the Lord."
How is this going to make them know anything? Ezekiel is not a dumb man, some body hit him monentarily with a stupid stick?
There is a take on this I am thinking about but part of me thinks it might be a too easy escape. I am having second thoughts.
The verb there can be translated "horrify," or "desolate," and I think the latter works better. We find many examples in the exilic period of YHWH claiming he's going to come down hard on the nations so they know he is YHWH. The idea is that they're going to know exactly where their punishment is coming from, which will be a forceful introduction to the God of Israel. Forcing Israel to sacrifice their firstborn would certainly desolate the population, and while they already know YHWH (or should), crippling their nation would be a forceful way to show them who has the power. The idea is, "You keep screwing around and not listening to me, so I'm gonna kick your ass so you know who's in charge."
Hi huckelberry. (by the way, any time I see your name pop up the soundtrack in my brain starts playing "Moon River".)
huckelberry wrote:Bret and Roger, I lost the division and conflated your dispute, I ask your pardon.
That is as gracious as it is unnecessary. Whenever Roger says something clever, I am happy to take credit for it.
But I would like to ask both of you why you care if the command to kill and burn your first born son is to YHWY or some other. The question which is loud to me is why either way? I am feeling as if your house was burning and you are discussing whether to grab the green bucket or red for water.
That is understandable. However, I don't regard the texts as inerrant so my house isn't on fire. If there is a benevolent God, I don't think She/He would command human sacrifice to anyone. Ezekiel apparently sees such sacrifice as part of the Law and is trying to offer an explanation.
And for what it's worth, I believe red is the traditional color for a fire bucket. But green'll do in a pinch.
What is the point of this sacrifice. It is defilement no matter to whom it is intended.
Yep.
what possible meaning is there in the words, "that I might fill them with horror, so they would know that I am the Lord."
How is this going to make them know anything? Ezekiel is not a dumb man, some body hit him momentarily with a stupid stick?
No, I don't think so. I think he is just trying to make the best of what appears from our cultural perspective to be an untenable situation. I'm not sure his original audience would have found his explanation as inadequate as we do.
There is a take on this I am thinking about but part of me thinks it might be a too easy escape. I am having second thoughts.
Well, feel free to run it up the flagpole if you are so inclined.
My ongoing thoughts for better or worse, I was fishing for any translation clarification and Makelan was helpful to point out that "desolate" might be better translation with its connection to divine judgement. I do not think that the desolation in view would be the death of the sacrificed babies however. First there is enough noise about Israel's ability to avoid obedience when convenient that I do not see any force in the picture which would reveal Gods power(or more importantly to preserve Gods name and honor). I do not see anything which would distinguish Israels from its neighbors in the unpleasantness of the sacrifice. People will have more children, society will not disappear due to killing frirstborns so a resulting desolation would be too limited. I see a different message and desolation if the babies dying are not those lost to sacrifice but instead are the ones discussed in "By the waters of Babylon we sat down and wept" Those babies are definitely understood as being swept up in a divine judgement and represent a serious desolation.
I think it is clear that whatever laws were being looked at there was not agreement that it was a good idea to sacrifice children in that time period. Jeremiah is clear he understands God to have never commanded or desired such a thing. Jeremiah proposed scribes falsified the law. Ezekiel is clear that child sacrifice is not something desired its presence in society is a condemnation from God. Both witness that there were people doing the sacrifices and thought it correct. Jeremiah does not describe his opponents as despairingly caring out horrid laws. He speaks of people wrapped in unjustified security because of their observance. I admit it is not spelled out but these things seem to point in the direction of people turning to child sacrifice to claim greater security . I think both Ezekiel and Jeremiah are saying that this is a false hope which is leading only to desolation. IN this ongoing dispute about whether YHWH demands child sacrifice God is going to weigh in by having those who sacrificed and imagined purchasing safety destroyed. It is an action sufficiently clear that the debate is resolved for subsequent generations.
I do not feel clear as to how the law came to be understood as contaning a command to sacrifice firstborn children. The Exodus sentence is a record of the idea. . There may be overlap in Ezekiel's and Jeremiahs comments but the comments are not the same. I am not enough of an inerrantist to expect to resolve the difference with assurance. As Makelan pointed out it goes far far back in time, it would be part of Israel's prehistory. He also noted that early in the monarchy is a likely time when kings would have moved away from the practice. Kings would have a stake in keeping a healthy population. You need people for production ,defense and war. despite such practical considerations it appears the issue may have remained religiously confused through out the period of kings. The Bible picture the moral leadership of prophets helping to lead to a resolution wherein child sacrifice no longer had a place in what was becoming Judaism.
To my understanding that is part of a region wide cultural change. ( that is ok with my theological dogma which sees God pointing all peoples in one direction, even if they are from a variety of starting points)
huckelberry wrote:... it appears the issue may have remained religiously confused through out the period of kings. The Bible picture the moral leadership of prophets helping to lead to a resolution wherein child sacrifice no longer had a place in what was becoming Judaism.
To my understanding that is part of a region wide cultural change. ( that is ok with my theological dogma which sees God pointing all peoples in one direction, even if they are from a variety of starting points)
for what it's worth, I think this is a great way to look at it.
LittleNipper wrote:This lady is a self proclaimed atheist who believes that God had a wife. So, I will not be taken any lessons soon from her regarding God's Word.
But early Israelites absolutely believed God had a wife. No one had a problem with it at all until around 700 BCE. I think you better reconsider whence come your lessons on the Bible and the beliefs held by those who authored it.
Abraham did not assume God had a wife. Isaac did not. Jacob did not. Joseph did not. Moses did not. Ahab more than likely did. Jezebel probably did (she might even have believed god to be a woman). Jeroboam is likely another. The question is who is on the LORD's side and not if you are right or not. The Israelites made a golden calf. So, do you believe that God looks like a cow? People believe stupid things in ancient times. We only have to consider the Mormons, and the Moonies, and Scientologist to realize that thing are no different today. The question is not were there Israelites who believed God to be married --- the questions are, were they correct and does the Bible teach this?
Clearly, the Jews were punished again and again for their unfaithfulness. And then they were dispersed. Are they more faithful today? I do believe some are but certainly not all and likely not most. And faithful to what?
2 Kings 18:1-37 In the 3rd year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign, at twenty-five years of age. He reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother’s name was Abijah daughter of Zechariah. He did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, just as his father David had done. He dismantled the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)
Hezekiah trusted in the Lord, the God of Israel. There was no one like him among all the kings of Judah, either before him or after him. He clung to the Lord and did not stop following him; he kept the commands the Lord had given Moses. The Lord was with him; he was successful in whatever he undertook. He rebelled against the king of Assyria and did not serve him. From watchtower to fortified city, he defeated the Philistines, as far as Gaza and its territory.
In King Hezekiah’s 4th year, which was the 7th year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Shalmaneser king of Assyria marched against Samaria and laid siege to it. At the end of 3 years the Assyrians took it. So Samaria was captured in Hezekiah’s 6th year, which was the 9th year of Hoshea king of Israel. The king of Assyria took the Israelites to Assyria and settled them in Halah, in Gozan on the Habor River and in towns of the Medes. This happened because they had not obeyed the Lord their God, but had violated his covenant—all that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded. They neither listened to the commands nor carried them out.
In the 14th year of King Hezekiah’s reign, Sennacherib king of Assyria attacked all the fortified cities of Judah and captured them. So Hezekiah king of Judah sent this message to the king of Assyria at Lachish: “I have done wrong. Withdraw from me, and I will pay whatever you demand of me.” The king of Assyria exacted from Hezekiah king of Judah three hundred talents of silver and thirty talents of gold. So Hezekiah gave him all the silver that was found in the temple of the Lord and in the treasuries of the royal palace. At this time Hezekiah king of Judah stripped off the gold with which he had covered the doors and doorposts of the temple of the Lord, and gave it to the king of Assyria.
The king of Assyria sent his supreme commander, his chief officer and his field commander with a large army, from Lachish to King Hezekiah at Jerusalem. They came up to Jerusalem and stopped at the aqueduct of the Upper Pool, on the road to the Washerman’s Field. They called for the king; and Eliakim son of Hilkiah the palace administrator, Shebna the secretary, and Joah son of Asaph the recorder went out to them. The field commander said to them, “Tell Hezekiah:
“‘This is what the great king, the king of Assyria, says: On what are you basing this confidence of yours? You say you have the counsel and the might for war—but you speak only empty words. On whom are you depending, that you rebel against me? Look, I know you are depending on Egypt, that splintered reed of a staff, which pierces the hand of anyone who leans on it! Such is Pharaoh king of Egypt to all who depend on him. But if you say to me, “We are depending on the Lord our God”—isn’t he the one whose high places and altars Hezekiah removed, saying to Judah and Jerusalem, “You must worship before this altar in Jerusalem”? Come now, make a bargain with my master, the king of Assyria: I will give you 2000 horses—if you can put riders on them! How can you repulse 1 officer of the least of my master’s officials, even though you are depending on Egypt for chariots and horsemen? Furthermore, have I come to attack and destroy this place without word from the Lord? The Lord himself told me to march against this country and destroy it.’”
Eliakim son of Hilkiah, and Shebna and Joah said to the field commander, “Please speak to your servants in Aramaic, since we understand it. Don’t speak to us in Hebrew in the hearing of the people on the wall.” The commander replied, “Was it only to your master and you that my master sent me to say these things, and not to the people sitting on the wall—who, like you, will have to eat their own poop and drink their own urine?”
The commander stood and called out in Hebrew, “Hear the word of the great king, the king of Assyria! This is what the king says: Do not let Hezekiah deceive you. He cannot deliver you from my hand. Do not let Hezekiah persuade you to trust in the Lord when he says, ‘The Lord will surely deliver us; this city will not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria.’ Do not listen to Hezekiah. This is what the king of Assyria says: Make peace with me and come out to me. Then each of you will eat fruit from your own vine and fig tree and drink water from your own cistern, until I come and take you to a land like your own—a land of grain and new wine, a land of bread and vineyards, a land of olive trees and honey. Choose life and not death! Do not listen to Hezekiah, for he is misleading you when he says, ‘The Lord will deliver us.’ Has the god of any nation ever delivered his land from the hand of the king of Assyria? Where are the gods of Hamath and Arpad? Where are the gods of Sepharvaim, Hena and Ivvah? Have they rescued Samaria from my hand? Who of all the gods of these countries has been able to save his land from me? How then can the Lord deliver Jerusalem from my hand?”
The people remained silent and said nothing in reply, because the king had commanded, “Do not answer him.” Eliakim son of Hilkiah the palace administrator, Shebna the secretary, and Joah son of Asaph the recorder went to Hezekiah, with their clothes torn, and told him what the field commander had said.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And it cometh to pass, in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, reigned hath Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah;
2 a son of twenty and five years was he in his reigning, and twenty and nine years he hath reigned in Jerusalem, and the name of his mother [is] Abi daughter of Zechariah.
3 And he doth that which [is] right in the eyes of Jehovah, according to all that David his father did,
4 he hath turned aside the high places, and broken in pieces the standing-pillars, and cut down the shrine, and beaten down the brazen serpent that Moses made, for unto these days were the sons of Israel making perfume to it, and he calleth it `a piece of brass.'
5 In Jehovah, God of Israel, he hath trusted, and after him there hath not been like him among all the kings of Judah, nor [among any] who were before him;
6 and he cleaveth to Jehovah, he hath not turned aside from after Him, and keepeth His commands that Jehovah commanded Moses.
7 And Jehovah hath been with him, in every place where he goeth out he acteth wisely, and he rebelleth against the king of Asshur, and hath not served him;
8 he hath smitten the Philistines unto Gaza, and its borders, from a tower of watchers unto the fenced city.
9 And it cometh to pass, in the fourth year of king Hezekiah -- it [is] the seventh year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel -- come up hath Shalmaneser king of Asshur against Samaria, and layeth siege to it,
10 and they capture it at the end of three years; in the sixth year of Hezekiah -- it [is] the ninth year of Hoshea king of Israel -- hath Samaria been captureth,
11 and the king of Asshur removeth Israel to Asshur, and placed them in Halah, and in Habor [by] the river Gozan, and [in] cities of the Medes,
12 because that they have not hearkened to the voice of Jehovah their God, and transgress His covenant -- all that He commanded Moses, servant of Jehovah -- yea, they have not hearkened nor done [it].
13 And in the fourteenth year of king Hezekiah hath Sennacherib king of Asshur come up against all the fenced cities of Judah, and seizeth them,
14 and Hezekiah king of Judah sendeth unto the king of Asshur to Lachish, saying, `I have sinned, turn back from off me; that which thou puttest on me I bear;' and the king of Asshur layeth on Hezekiah king of Judah three hundred talents of silver, and thirty talents of gold,
15 and Hezekiah giveth all the silver that is found in the house of Jehovah, and in the treasures of the house of the king;
16 at that time hath Hezekiah cut off the doors of the temple of Jehovah, and the pillars that Hezekiah king of Judah had overlaid, and giveth them to the king of Asshur.
17 And the king of Asshur sendeth Tartan, and the chief of the eunuchs, and the chief of the butlers, from Lachish, unto king Hezekiah, with a heavy force, to Jerusalem, and they go up and come in to Jerusalem, and they go up, and come in and stand by the conduit of the upper pool that [is] in the highway of the fuller's field.
18 And they call unto the king, and go out unto them doth Eliakim son of Hilkiah, who [is] over the house, and Shebna the scribe, and Joah son of Asaph the remembrancer.
19 And the chief of the butlers saith unto them, `Say, I pray you, unto Hezekiah, Thus said the great king, the king of Asshur, What [is] this confidence in which thou hast confided?
20 Thou hast said: Only a word of the lips! counsel and might [are] for battle; now, on whom hast thou trusted that thou hast rebelled against me?
21 `Now, lo, thou hast trusted for thee on the staff of this broken reed, on Egypt; which a man leaneth on, and it hath gone into his hand, and pierced it! -- so [is] Pharaoh king of Egypt to all those trusting on him.
22 `And when ye say unto me, Unto Jehovah our God we have trusted, is it not He whose high places and whose altars Hezekiah hath turned aside, and saith to Judah and to Jerusalem, Before this altar do ye bow yourselves in Jerusalem?
23 `And, now, give a pledge for thee, I pray thee, to my lord the king of Asshur, and I give to thee two thousand horses, if thou art able to give for thee riders on them.
24 And how dost thou turn back the face of one captain of the least of the servants of my lord, that thou dost trust for thee on Egypt for chariot, and for horsemen?
25 Now, without Jehovah have I come up against this place to destroy it? Jehovah said unto me, Go up against this land, and thou hast destroyed it.'
26 And Eliakim son of Hilkiah saith -- and Shebna, and Joah -- to the chief of the butlers, `Speak, we pray thee, unto thy servants [in] Aramaean, for we are understanding, and do not speak with us [in] Jewish, in the ears of the people who [are] on the wall.'
27 And the chief of the butlers saith unto them, `For thy lord, and unto thee, hath my lord sent me to speak these words? is it not for the men, those sitting on the wall to eat their own dung and to drink their own water, with you?'
28 And the chief of the butlers standeth and calleth with a great voice [in] Jewish, and speaketh and saith, `Hear ye a word of the great king, the king of Asshur:
29 thus said the king, Let not Hezekiah lift you up, for he is not able to deliver you out of his hand;
30 and let not Hezekiah make you trust unto Jehovah, saying, Jehovah doth certainly deliver us, and this city is not given into the hand of the king of Asshur.
31 `Do not hearken unto Hezekiah, for thus said the king of Asshur, Make with me a blessing, and come out unto me, and eat ye each of his vine, and each of his fig-tree, and drink ye each the waters of his own well,
32 till my coming in, and I have taken you unto a land like your own land, a land of corn and new wine, a land of bread and vineyards, a land of oil olive, and honey, and live, and die not; and do not hearken unto Hezekiah, when he persuadeth you, saying, Jehovah doth deliver us.
33 `Have the gods of the nations delivered at all each his land out of the hand of the king of Asshur?
34 Where [are] the gods of Hamath and Arpad? where the gods of Sepharvaim, Hena, and Ivvah, that they have delivered Samaria out of my hand?
35 Who [are they] among all the gods of the lands that have delivered their land out of my hand, that Jehovah doth deliver Jerusalem out of my hand?'
36 And the people have kept silent, and have not answered him a word, for the command of the king is, saying, `Do not answer him.'
37 And Eliakim son of Hilkiah, who [is] over the house, cometh in, and Shebna the scribe, and Joah son of Asaph the remembrancer, unto Hezekiah, with rent garments, and they declare to him the words of the chief of the butlers.
