Why didn't the Apostle see this coming?

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_ZelphtheGreat
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Re: Why didn't the Apostle see this coming?

Post by _ZelphtheGreat »

They are sustained as Prophets, Seers and Revelators.

That they don't see more then Dollars from a shopping mall and investments says a lot.
“If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing." Ensign/2012/12
_mentalgymnast
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Re: Why didn't the Apostle see this coming?

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Bazooka wrote:...stories like yours make me sick.
They smack of entitlement and superiority and a total disregard for humanity....


I had to chuckle when I read this.

Yeah, at the time I was definitely thinking I was entitled and better than the next guy. :rolleyes: Oh, and I remember specifically thinking, " I don't give a damn about humanity, just help me." :twisted: And as I was driving down the road I thought to myself, "How can I worship a God who would bless me in a time of need and yet have a total disregard for those that ought to receive his blessings BEFORE I do...where is the fairness in that?" So I stopped believing then and there. :wink:

Bazooka, all I can say is that I experienced what I experienced. I am well aware of how fevers can break all of the sudden, etc. I readily admitted that there could be a physiological explanation for what I experienced. And from your point of view it is easy to chalk up an experience such as this to false memory syndrome or a fish story. I get that. But I know what happened and I know what I experienced. Gee whiz, I'm sounding a bit like Joseph Smith and his reference to the First Vision, aren't I? :smile:

If a creator/God exists THERE IS NO WAY that you or I can successfully reason out why He does this or does that. But you're right, we can choose whether or not we worship/believe in Him. We can judge and condemn him as a monster. Or, OTOH, we can recognize that all good things come from God and that there is also evil and suffering in the world and be grateful, if for whatever reason, God blesses us personally from time to time.

This experience was around thirty years ago and the time it took a healing agent/entity (maybe it was my grandpa(??...his priesthood power...) from the other side of the veil...didn't even have to be God Himself...to make things better would have been the equivalent of a snap of the fingers or an invisible laying on of the hands. I'm just happy that in the eternal scheme of things, and in this portion of time and space, I was able to have this experience which has stuck with me all these years.

An experience such as this one that I shared and those that others have at a micro level cannot be transferred or fully communicated to someone else. But they can easily be explained away by someone else.

by the way, why do you have a problem with the idea that God would choose to reveal Himself in the world, more often than not, at a micro intervention level rather than macro? As you describe your reason(s), take a little bit of time to explicitly lay out the logistics of how and when God ought to intervene at the macro level (assuming that you believe that this is where God ought to be "hanging out"). SteelHead mentioned manna. What do you think about that? And also describe, knowing the end from the beginning as you apparently do :wink: , WHY would God would step in continuously (He'd have to be stepping in all over the globe saving this child and that one...hand feeding them...and while He's doing that...with His other hand... stop this situation and the other)?

Talk about multi-tasking! by the way, as you can probably gather, I believe that WE are God's hands and have a responsibility in this world to be His agents. And every so often He will see that we are lifted up with a micro intervention if we seek/need it. In the picture we've been looking at on this thread notice that there is what appears to be a mother in the background. Wouldn't you guess she's trying to do the best she can in taking care of the needs of her children, albeit rather unsuccessfully? These children have HER love. And who's to say that God doesn't comfort and/or give His Spirit to those kids and others in a unique way and/or means by which they KNOW that they are loved by a creator/God and that everything will be OK...even should they die before their journey's through.

All is well. All is well.

If we choose to believe in God, this is a natural spin off of that belief. All will be well. But not by your standards or ways and means.

You can either choose to accept that God is in charge...or not. It really is that simple. You can take it or leave it. You've made your choice.

Regards,
MG
Last edited by Guest on Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Bazooka
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Re: Why didn't the Apostle see this coming?

Post by _Bazooka »

mentalgymnast wrote:Bazooka, all I can say is that I experienced what I experienced. I am well aware of how fevers can break all of the sudden, etc. I readily admitted that there could be a physiological explanation for what I experienced. And from your point of view it is easy to chalk up an experience such as this to false memory syndrome or a fish story. I get that. But I know what happened and I know what I experienced. Gee whiz, I'm sounding a bit like Joseph Smith and his reference to the First Vision, aren't I? :smile:

If a creator/God exists THERE IS NO WAY that you or I can successfully reason out why He does this or does that. But you're right, we can choose whether or not we worship/believe in Him. We can judge and condemn him as a monster. Or, OTOH, we can recognize that all good things come from God and that there is also evil and suffering in the world and be grateful, if for whatever reason, God blesses us personally from time to time.

This experience was around thirty years ago and the time it took a healing agent/entity (maybe it was my grandpa(??...his priesthood power...) from the other side of the veil...didn't even have to be God Himself...to make things better would have been the equivalent of a snap of the fingers or an invisible laying on of the hands. I'm just happy that in the eternal scheme of things, and in this portion of time and space, I was able to have this experience which has stuck with me all these years.

An experience such as this one that I shared and those that others have at a micro level cannot be transferred or fully communicated to someone else. But they can easily be explained away by someone else.

by the way, why do you have a problem with the idea that God would choose to reveal Himself in the world, more often than not, at a micro intervention level rather than macro? As you describe your reason(s), take a little bit of time to explicitly lay out the logistics of how and when God ought to intervene at the macro level (assuming that you believe that this is where God ought to be "hanging out"). Ludwigm mentioned manna. What do you think about that? And also describe, knowing the end from the beginning as you apparently do :wink: , WHY would God would step in continuously (He'd have to be stepping in all over the globe saving this child and that one...hand feeding them...and while He's doing that...with His other hand... stop this situation and the other)?

Talk about multi-tasking! by the way, as you can probably gather, I believe that WE are God's hands and have a responsibility in this world to be His agents. And every so often He will see that we are lifted up with a micro intervention if we seek/need it. In the picture we've been looking at on this thread notice that there is what appears to be a mother in the background. Wouldn't you guess she's trying to do the best she can in taking care of the needs of her children, albeit rather unsuccessfully? These children have HER love. And who's to say that God doesn't comfort and/or give His Spirit to those kids and others in a unique way and/or means by which they KNOW that they are loved by a creator/God and that everything will be OK...even should they die before their journey's through.

All is well. All is well.

If we choose to believe in God, this is a natural spin off of that belief. All will be well. But not by your standards or ways and means.

You can either choose to accept that God is in charge...or not. It really is that simple. You can take it or leave it. You've made your choice.

Regards,
MG


I don't have a problem with God intervening at either a micro or a macro level - however you determine what is micro and what is macro. I have a problem with the evidence that if God intervenes at either a macro or a macro level He does so inconsistently and without rhyme nor reason. Inconsistency is not, supposedly, one of Gods traits.

Mormonism teaches us that we are here to learn to become Gods. So, on that basis, can you explain what your experience has taught you about Gods ways in a way that can be seen as a consistent pattern across all Gods children, or even just across those special Gods children who got themselves baptised as Mormons? I don't think you can. In fact, I will go out on a limb and say that I don't think you can articulate how God has been consistent in His interventions just in your own life.

*I note you didn't tell us what you thought of the imaginary neighbour Bill.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_SteelHead
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Re: Why didn't the Apostle see this coming?

Post by _SteelHead »

SteelHead wrote:Image
Quite the deity, this god of yours.... Intervenes for you, ignores these kids.


All is well? Well maybe not ALL..... But for some folk....
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_ludwigm
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Re: Why didn't the Apostle see this coming?

Post by _ludwigm »

Themis wrote:
harmony wrote:Why should God worry about Ebola? It's not news to God. And the thing is.... God knows none of us is going to get out of this life alive. That's right, folks: we're all going to die. So what if it's by Ebola or the Bubonic Plague? We're all still going to die.
Yes, but I assume most would rather die a little later when they have a good amount of grey hair and have experienced much of the good things of life, and then die from a massive heart attack while sleeping. :wink:
See http://www.turnto23.com/news/local-news ... end-072914
.
(NSFW: video starts without demand)
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_mentalgymnast
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Re: Why didn't the Apostle see this coming?

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Bazooka wrote:I don't have a problem with God intervening at either a micro or a macro level - however you determine what is micro and what is macro.


That's your answer? If there is one thing I've noticed, you folks like to dish it out and ask the questions but you're short on answers to questions asked of you. This has been the track record from time immemorial on this board. in my opinion. :smile:

Here's the question again:

...take a little bit of time to explicitly lay out the logistics of how and when God ought to intervene at the macro level (assuming that you believe that this is where God ought to be "hanging out"). Ludwigm mentioned manna. What do you think about that? And also describe, knowing the end from the beginning as you apparently do :wink: , WHY would God would step in continuously (He'd have to be stepping in all over the globe saving this child and that one...hand feeding them...and while He's doing that...with His other hand... stop this situation and the other)?


Oh, and how would YOU define macro and micro in regards to God's intervention? I've already expressed some of my ideas.

You said:
I have a problem with the evidence that if God intervenes at either a macro or a macro level He does so inconsistently and without rhyme nor reason. Inconsistency is not, supposedly, one of Gods traits.


Then you have chosen to question how God works...or doesn't... in the world. That is your prerogative.

Bazooka wrote:Mormonism teaches us that we are here to learn to become Gods. So, on that basis, can you explain what your experience has taught you about Gods ways in a way that can be seen as a consistent pattern across all Gods children, or even just across those special Gods children who got themselves baptised as Mormons? I don't think you can.


You're right. Because I don't require that God act in such a way that I can understand every move He makes. I also don't require that God act in a way that I define as consistent. When you place limits on God according your atrophied understanding you are at a distinct disadvantage as you then judge what He does as either being consistent or inconsistent among various and varied situations, environments, conditions, and people.

Good luck with that!

Bazooka wrote:In fact, I will go out on a limb and say that I don't think you can articulate how God has been consistent in His interventions just in your own life.[/quote}

And that is important, why?

Bazooka wrote:*I note you didn't tell us what you thought of the imaginary neighbour Bill.



Go back and read my recent comments and I think you'll see that I did indirectly make contact with the point you were trying to make with your story. If I was Bill, under those circumstances, I would have had someone else deliver the Red Bull and I would have then taken care of the more important issues. Problem is, even after I've reassigned the Red Bull delivery I have a problem. As I stop to help in the case of sexual abuse happening at that very moment I am also going to potentially/probably get outside too late, and my youngest is going to already be dead. In other words's, it's damned hard as a human being to multitask even when the situation demands it. There will be consequences for NOT multitasking...even though it's not anyone's fault for not being able to.

Your story is lame.

Again, if you go back and read my post carefully you'll see that I've addressed this dilemma albeit very superficially. Oh, and keep in mind...God is great...God is good. I'm guessing he can set priorities at the micro and macro level to suit the needs of the global economy...in regards to His works and purposes...without our puny efforts in trying to micro manage what He does.

This is what you're attempting to do, right?

Good luck with that too. :smile:

Regards,
MG
_Some Schmo
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Re: Why didn't the Apostle see this coming?

Post by _Some Schmo »

I could possibly believe there's a god, and I can possibly believe there is goodness, but it's impossible to believe in a good god (not by any worldly definition of "good" anyway, which is all that matters).
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_BartBurk
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Re: Why didn't the Apostle see this coming?

Post by _BartBurk »

Some Schmo wrote:I could possibly believe there's a god, and I can possibly believe there is goodness, but it's impossible to believe in a good god (not by any worldly definition of "good" anyway, which is all that matters).


I believe God honors our freedom and allows suffering even to the point of allowing his only Son to suffer death on a cross. That's where all the suffering is eventually redeemed -- as a person who believes all will be saved I have confidence that God will straighten this all out. I don't believe that means God is going to reveal everything even to those who claim to be prophets. That in and of itself could interfere with our freedom. I have a great hope that in the end everyone will freely choose to be saved.
_Bazooka
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Re: Why didn't the Apostle see this coming?

Post by _Bazooka »

mentalgymnast wrote:Your story is lame.


My story is your story except I've changed the main characters name from God to Bill.

I will address your other points when I'm not on my mobile device.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_mentalgymnast
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Re: Why didn't the Apostle see this coming?

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Bazooka wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:Your story is lame.


My story is your story except I've changed the main characters name from God to Bill.

I will address your other points when I'm not on my mobile device.


God: creator of the known universe.

Bill: some guy down the street.

A story does not a God make.

Could you explain how your Mr. Bill story does not fall into the logistical fallacy trap of using a false analogy to make a point?

In an analogy, two objects (or events), A and B are shown to be similar. Then it is argued that since A has property P, so also B must have property P. An analogy fails when the two objects, A and B, are different in a way which affects whether they both have property P.


A=God
B=Bill

What is property 'P'?

Do both A and B have that same property? A and B are no different, right?

Also interested in your views concerning the micro/macro intervention question or two I asked. Reasons and logistics.

Regards,
MG
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