Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[Dr Exiled]

I would say it was a mistake for John Dehlin to come over here.

I would say so, yes. For over 150 pages there were people defending his case and doing a fairly good job at it. He came in and with a line or two eviscerated that position, it seems to me. I may be overstating it some, I suppose, since it appears there is some question persisting.

I imagined some sort of movie scene with a judge slamming his gavel while the court room erupts into some frenzy as John answered the couple of questions, all followed by the the prosecuting attorney yelling out "the witness has rights". thanks movies...at least you give me pictures to add to the imagination.

I can handle the truth ..... lol

[Kishkumen]

Uh. The point was they weren't equals. Never were.

- Doc

She understood that going into it, and yet she agreed to it anyway. If her promise to John was a stupid one, it was nevertheless one that she made willingly. Both parties were stupid to do it, but they both did it. Rosebud could have chosen to have nothing to do with the guy who would ask her to enter Open Stories Foundation on those terms. She should have chosen to have nothing to do with that guy or with his company. She did anyway.

John was unequivocally wrong in all of this too. But he wasn't forcing Rosebud to have an affair with him or to work at Open Stories Foundation. She willingly and knowingly entered into this unequal relationship. John Dehlin constructed the terms of the promise such that Rosebud would always be subordinate in this way. But how did she not know that?

Did she just choose to ignore the obvious?

How much sympathy or redress should she get after having consciously entered into this kind of unfavorable, unequal, and frankly creepy arrangement?

[Kishkumen]

I would say so, yes. For over 150 pages there were people defending his case and doing a fairly good job at it. He came in and with a line or two eviscerated that position, it seems to me. I may be overstating it some, I suppose, since it appears there is some question persisting.

I imagined some sort of movie scene with a judge slamming his gavel while the court room erupts into some frenzy as John answered the couple of questions, all followed by the the prosecuting attorney yelling out "the witness has rights". thanks movies...at least you give me pictures to add to the imagination.

Yeah, in one way he cooked his own goose by coming here. At the same time, what he offered was important context for helping me understand the degree to which Rosebud knew exactly what she was getting into. She made a devil's bargain. Neither one of them look at all praiseworthy in this situation. I think they basically, at the beginning, wanted to play around sexually and work together. They ended up wanting different things.

[Esme]

Whether or not a subordinate enters an unbalanced and unethical quid pro quo agreement voluntarily, I think the greater responsibility ultimately lies on the superior. Many inappropriate relationships are entered into voluntarily at the beginning, but the person with the greater power ends up receiving the greater discipline at the end.

He never should have participated in/gone along with the agreement in the first place and he never should have tried to enforce it when the relationship ended.

[Esme]

Remember, in the beginning she was a volunteer for the organization. Similar to an unpaid intern. She had even LESS power back then. They certainly didn't both enter into this on equal footing.

[consiglieri]

With events unfolding as they did, the only thing JD could have done was not enter the relationship at all.

That was a mistake.

And I think everyone here agrees on at least that much.

Including JD.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Uh. The point was they weren't equals. Never were.

- Doc

She understood that going into it, and yet she agreed to it anyway. If her promise to John was a stupid one, it was nevertheless one that she made willingly. Both parties were stupid to do it, but they both did it. Rosebud could have chosen to have nothing to do with the guy who would ask her to enter Open Stories Foundation on those terms. She should have chosen to have nothing to do with that guy or with his company. She did anyway.

John was unequivocally wrong in all of this too. But he wasn't forcing Rosebud to have an affair with him or to work at Open Stories Foundation. She willingly and knowingly entered into this unequal relationship. John Dehlin constructed the terms of the promise such that Rosebud would always be subordinate in this way. But how did she not know that?

Did she just choose to ignore the obvious?

How much sympathy or redress should she get after having consciously entered into this kind of unfavorable, unequal, and frankly creepy arrangement?

Doesn’t matter, really. At the end of the day the person with power entered into a quid pro quo relationship.

- Doc

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Remember, in the beginning she was a volunteer for the organization. Similar to an unpaid intern. She had even LESS power back then. They certainly didn't both enter into this on equal footing.

That’s an excellent observation.

- Doc

[dastardly stem]

I can handle the truth ..... lol

Kaffey (instensely): Did you sexually harass her?
Dehlin: I did the job...
Kaffey (yelling): DID YOU SEXUALLY HARASS HER?
Dehlin (yelling back): YOU'RE GODDAM RIGHT I DID.

Ok. Yeah..that's the scene. lol.

[Kishkumen]

Remember, in the beginning she was a volunteer for the organization. Similar to an unpaid intern. She had even LESS power back then. They certainly didn't both enter into this on equal footing.

Less power but more freedom to walk without consequences. That was the time to walk away.