Why humans are born handicapped and minorities

[_subgenius]

...(snip)...I was proposing that though there could be situations where individual characteristics could influence divine selection as to where and when a person is born.

Which seems to be what President Lee is suggesting.

I however do not see any reason to be sure about that because all human experience can contribute. I cannot think of a reason to believe God is oblieged to give people equal challanges or challenges only designed to fit them. People get all sorts of challenges.

I suppose "equality" in terms of how God treats people now, before, and in the future is reliant on how one views the notion that God must surely be Just. In other words would it be "unjust" for God to arbitrarily assign burdens and challenges of varying degrees to otherwise 'equal' people? If you and I were born with an equal spiritual position would it be 'unjust' to give you a physical affliction and me physical prowess?

Even though it is not my view, I am not really against the idea that peoples life challenges are more fit to their needs as you propose. I am less happy with the idea that disadvantaged people are born that way due their preexisting shortcomings. I can just as easlily see such people being chosen because they are stronger and more able to deal with the difficulties of being born in disadvantaged circumstances.

I can see how a these two views can be reasoned from a purely temporal view...that is to say, from the perspective of whatever sensibility informs the cultural trend. We, as a society, have a very compassionate view of handicap people today when compared to history...and who knows how "afflictions" will be manifest in the future and how they will be considered?
But
If we are to consider these conditions against the context of the Gospel, then things become a little more decisive...determined as it where. One must certainly justify the relationship of the spirit to the body, to an affliction, and to another spirit rather than relying on some sort of arbitrary notion of politeness.

As an exercise -
why do you feel compassion towards a handicap person? Is it necessary to be compassionate merely because of their affliction? Does a blind man who has no redeeming physical or spiritual characteristics deserve compassion just because he is blind? Why does Christ bother "healing" an affliction in the first place? How come we see the removal of an affliction as being a "blessing" time and time again in the scriptures? (counter that with the episodes where the seemingly un-afflicted are blessed when they are given affliction(s)).
I believe there is a relationship between our temporal experiences (i.e. physical failures and successes) and our spiritual development
But
how can all this be related/reconciled to the notion that we were known prior to being formed in the womb? If there is a judgment after this life which can have an obvious impact on our next station, is it not reasonable that there was judgment prior to this life that had an impact on this station?

[Guest]

Please, if you are going to mangle "tabula rasa" that badly, please use the English "blank slate." It grates on me whenever I see something so bad as rose (edit) picture.

God knows whatever you have been given, before your birth (as in genes and culture). If you are given much, He expects you to do much (within His will) with it. If you are given little, he expects you to do everything you can, within His will. You do the best with what you are given, and He judges you according to that.

Very simple, and obviates any need for a pre-existence, which encourages pride among wealthy Utah royalty, and lack of compassion for those born into less privilege. In the Book of Mormon, God repeatedly punishes such people--- don't you get it?

[_subgenius]

Please, if you are going to mangle "tabula rasa" that badly, please use the English "blank slate." It grates on me whenever I see something so bad as red picture.

thanks for picking up on that, bt you really should get out of that box on occasion

God knows whatever you have been given, before your birth (as in genes and culture). If you are given much, He expects you to do much (within His will) with it. If you are given little, he expects you to do everything you can, within His will. You do the best with what you are given, and He judges you according to that.

Yep, we have established that ,and it was not even a dispute - the topic at hand is more in line with why varying amounts are given at all.

Very simple, and obviates any need for a pre-existence, which encourages pride among wealthy Utah royalty, and lack of compassion for those born into less privilege. In the Book of Mormon, God repeatedly punishes such people--- don't you get it?

ummm, the discussion is not at all about your level of material wealth but rather physical affliction(s)...like the learning disability exhibited in your post....get it?

[_Always Changing]

LOL. I appreciate your sense of humor, and that you chose to respond to my post. Honestly, I am surprised.

All circumstances over which we have very little control should be considered in a debate such as this. IMHO.

[_huckelberry]

I suppose "equality" in terms of how God treats people now, before, and in the future is reliant on how one views the notion that God must surely be Just. In other words would it be "unjust" for God to arbitrarily assign burdens and challenges of varying degrees to otherwise 'equal' people? If you and I were born with an equal spiritual position would it be 'unjust' to give you a physical affliction and me physical prowess?

I am revolted by the idea that disadvantaged people are born that way due their preexisting shortcomings. I can easily see the posibilitity that disadvantaged people are chosen because their spirits are stronger and more able to deal with the difficulties of being born in disadvantaged circumstances.

I can see how a these two views can be reasoned from a purely temporal view...that is to say, from the perspective of whatever sensibility informs the cultural trend.
But
If we are to consider these conditions against the context of the Gospel, then things become a little more decisive...determined as it where. One must certainly justify the relationship of the spirit to the body, to an affliction, and to another spirit rather than relying on some sort of arbitrary notion of politeness.

As an exercise -
why do you feel compassion towards a handicap person? Is it necessary to be compassionate merely because of their affliction? Does a blind man who has no redeeming physical or spiritual characteristics deserve compassion just because he is blind? Why does Christ bother "healing" an affliction in the first place? How come we see the removal of an affliction as being a "blessing" time and time again in the scriptures? (counter that with the episodes where the seemingly un-afflicted are blessed when they are given affliction(s)).
I believe there is a relationship between our temporal experiences (i.e. physical failures and successes) and our spiritual development
But
how can all this be related/reconciled to the notion that we were known prior to being formed in the womb? If there is a judgment after this life which can have an obvious impact on our next station, is it not reasonable that there was judgment prior to this life that had an impact on this station?

(quote has been abbreviated)

Subgenius, I think we agree that the question is not about what are temporal attitudes but about what is taught in the gospel by Jesus Christ.

You proposed a group of questions but I am not at all clear what view you might have toward them. I think we should be compassionate to all people. The different situations for individuals means that the form compassion takes is different for different people, A person in a wheel chair needs considerations that I, being able to walk do not need. I would expect the person in a wheel chair to have the same moral obligations as I do however.

Not all people in wheelchairs will have the same moral character. Some might be saintly some middling some bad and its possible a few are moral monsters. That is a bit like observing that people of economically disadvantaged nationalities or races all exhibit the same spectrum of spiritual quality or lack of quality that people born to advantage. They like people in wheel chairs may be saint or demons or many positions between. This diversity would be an indication that judgement from God is something at the end of the process. Now is a time for grace which is a combination of forgiveness and moral renewal and growth. People in all sorts of positions may participate in that process so God does not have to set people up with designed opportunities. That is not his obligation. The only obligation is that we, in whatever position we are, are rich in return towards God.

God is fully capable of in the end treating us equally according to what we have done with our life with its highly unequal situations.

[_subgenius]

Subgenius, I think we agree that the question is not about what are temporal attitudes but about what is taught in the gospel by Jesus Christ.

agreed, but i do not think that was the intention of the OP.

You proposed a group of questions but I am not at all clear what view you might have toward them. I think we should be compassionate to all people. The different situations for individuals means that the form compassion takes is different for different people, A person in a wheel chair needs considerations that I, being able to walk do not need. I would expect the person in a wheel chair to have the same moral obligations as I do however.

I understand a certain level of homogenization across spiritual challenges. And that many challenges may eventually produce the same result - but while many paths may lead to the same spiritual point, why would some paths be longer or more arduous than other paths?

Not all people in wheelchairs will have the same moral character. Some might be saintly some middling some bad and its possible a few are moral monsters. That is a bit like observing that people of economically disadvantaged nationalities or races all exhibit the same spectrum of spiritual quality or lack of quality that people born to advantage. They like people in wheel chairs may be saint or demons or many positions between. This diversity would be an indication that judgement from God is something at the end of the process. Now is a time for grace which is a combination of forgiveness and moral renewal and growth. People in all sorts of positions may participate in that process so God does not have to set people up with designed opportunities. That is not his obligation. The only obligation is that we, in whatever position we are, are rich in return towards God.

God is fully capable of in the end treating us equally according to what we have done with our life with its highly unequal situations.

I agree that God is capable of such a discernment. But does the "highly unequal situations" convey an unjust of just principle? Necessarily if one person is born sighted and another is born blind this must be a just situation from God. So, my question is how is justice being served by these "highly unequal" birth conditions that will surely provide distinct challenges for each person as they both travel their individual paths towards the same goal?
I believe President Lee speaks to the notion that each spirit, due to preexistence conditions, is in need of different (seemingly unequal) refinements available from this life. Thus any person who may seemingly need to work harder in this life is compensating for preexistence shortcomings...ultimately so that all parties involved may progress to the next level.
The alternatives are that challenges/burdens in this life are truly random and that justice is arbitrary....or, as you may be suggesting in your closing above, that salvation is graded on the curve.

[_huckelberry]

NNow is a time for grace which is a combination of forgiveness and moral renewal and growth. People in all sorts of positions may participate in that process so God does not have to set people up with designed opportunities. That is not his obligation. The only obligation is that we, in whatever position we are, are rich in return towards God.

God is fully capable of in the end treating us equally according to what we have done with our life with its highly unequal situations.

I agree that God is capable of such a discernment. But does the "highly unequal situations" convey an unjust of just principle? Necessarily if one person is born sighted and another is born blind this must be a just situation from God. So, my question is how is justice being served by these "highly unequal" birth conditions that will surely provide distinct challenges for each person as they both travel their individual paths towards the same goal?
I believe President Lee speaks to the notion that each spirit, due to preexistence conditions, is in need of different (seemingly unequal) refinements available from this life. Thus any person who may seemingly need to work harder in this life is compensating for preexistence shortcomings...ultimately so that all parties involved may progress to the next level.
The alternatives are that challenges/burdens in this life are truly random and that justice is arbitrary....or, as you may be suggesting in your closing above, that salvation is graded on the curve.

My comments about how justice is being served have not been related to the idea of grading on a curve. Grading on the curve uses the idea that a set small number of people do very well or very poorly while a majority are in the middle. Standard percentages of the population fall into these categories and grades are assigned by matching degree of success with those percentages.

[_subgenius]

My comments about how justice is being served have not been related to the idea of grading on a curve. Grading on the curve uses the idea that a set small number of people do very well or very poorly while a majority are in the middle. Standard percentages of the population fall into these categories and grades are assigned by matching degree of success with those percentages.

which is akin to your comment :
"God is fully capable of in the end treating us equally according to what we have done with our life with its highly unequal situations."

Yet this does not satisfy my original question. How is He treating unequal situations equally? And if people are starting out equal, why are unequal situations being applied to them?
It seems counter-intuitive to the idea of a Just God where He would not apply equal situation to equal persons, or that He would not apply unequal situations to unequal persons.

I was trying to think about this idea in an oversimplified manner, like a running race. No matter how fast or how slow, everyone starts behind the same line and ends across the same line. Now many races these days utilize timing devices worn by each individual runner (resulting in a chip time and a gun time). These races usually arrange the racers by their ability. Fast racers are put towards the front, while the much slower racers bring up the rear. This allows the pack of racers to move in a safer manner with less congestion. Now this arrangement is not equal (fair) when one considers the "gun time" - which is measured from the firing of the start gun to whenever any individual crosses the finish line. Quite obviously a person's gun time assumes crossing over the start time at an equal instance, which is the common method for professional/Olympic style races...an unlikely occurrence in large community-style race. So arguably one could run the actual race distance faster than another person but have a slower time because they started further behind the start line.
nevertheless, the chip time compensates for this because it measures only the time for which the chip crosses the start line and then finish line. So, while you may have been required to stand further back from the start line than other, faster, racers your time is accurate unto your own ability...thus an equal measure.
But, the notion of fair comes into play with the starting formation.
Is it fair, in a chip-times race, that a much slower racer (for whatever reason) is allowed to start in the front, Potentially causing hazards and injuries by impeding the progress of much faster racers? Is it fair that the faster racer receives a time that does not truly reflect their individual performance, because of the actions of others?
Is it fair that the slower racer has to cover more ground to actually start the race (they do not have to run over that distance)? Arguably the front starting racers have prepared more for the race and are more capable...yet everyone is allowed to race.
So, did President Lee consider these back of the pack racers to be the lazier racers or just the least prepared racers?

[_huckelberry]

Subgenius, lets skip the grade on a curve puzzle, I am missing the connection you see. It might be because I was not thinking of a race while clearly you are. I do not think the point of life is seeing who can beat everybody else to Madrid. (or wherever you may be racing to). As I mentioned before I see the central things in life as a team effort to build something. In that picture I do not find a place for your worrying about who might unfairly impede another runner. If you are running why not arrange enough space to run well?

You ask how I see God making the race fair. I think the disparity of advantages people face are so great that I cannot imagine God that is making any effort at all to make the race fair. I do not think he is interested in a race.

[_subgenius]

Subgenius, lets skip the grade on a curve puzzle, I am missing the connection you see. It might be because I was not thinking of a race while clearly you are. I do not think the point of life is seeing who can beat everybody else to Madrid. (or wherever you may be racing to). As I mentioned before I see the central things in life as a team effort to build something. In that picture I do not find a place for your worrying about who might unfairly impede another runner. If you are running why not arrange enough space to run well?

You ask how I see God making the race fair. I think the disparity of advantages people face are so great that I cannot imagine God that is making any effort at all to make the race fair. I do not think he is interested in a race.

Then why is there a judgment?
My notion about a race was intended to oversimplify the matter, but the notion about "evaluating a performance" is founded in the very character of God and throughout the scriptures.
So, it is undeniable that God evaluates us for this life, so is it unreasonable to consider that He evaluated us before this life? and that He will evaluate us in the next life?

Point being, He obviously expects, if not commands, us all to move forward and to reach a goal...all within a finite measure of time on this earth...yet He gives some legs and some not....is this because He expects different performances from different people? If so, then why?