Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[Kishkumen]

Whether or not a subordinate enters an unbalanced and unethical quid pro quo agreement voluntarily, I think the greater responsibility ultimately lies on the superior. Many inappropriate relationships are entered into voluntarily at the beginning, but the person with the greater power ends up receiving the greater discipline at the end.

He never should have participated in/gone along with the agreement in the first place and he never should have tried to enforce it when the relationship ended.

That and a beanie button will get you a beanie button, unless of course concluding John Dehlin was a worse guy than Rosebud is emotionally satisfying.

[Jersey Girl]

With events unfolding as they did, the only thing JD could have done was not enter the relationship at all.

That was a mistake.

And I think everyone here agrees on at least that much.

Including JD.

Exactly so. This is a futile effort with no end game and it's been just that ever since Rosebud graced MDB with her presence. She doesn't have a case. She never had a case. No case that I can see that could be possibly litigated. And if her case couldn't be litigated then what is the purpose here other than to put JD's crap in the street and attempt to destroy him in the court of public opinion and make herself look like a vindictive bunny boiler extraordinaire for nearly ten years ongoing?

What is the point at this point? A woman scorned? Fine. But I don't recommend allowing oneself to stay scorned for almost a decade of her life. She had more than one recourse here from which to choose. Instead of spinning her wheels on this for ten years, she could have used that time to create something new.

But no. She keeps poking the bear every six months or so and all that does is ensure that she stays in the stuck position she's in, in spite of her claims of personal growth.

[Dr Exiled]

Uh. The point was they weren't equals. Never were.

- Doc

She understood that going into it, and yet she agreed to it anyway. If her promise to John was a stupid one, it was nevertheless one that she made willingly. Both parties were stupid to do it, but they both did it. Rosebud could have chosen to have nothing to do with the guy who would ask her to enter Open Stories Foundation on those terms. She should have chosen to have nothing to do with that guy or with his company. She did anyway.

John was unequivocally wrong in all of this too. But he wasn't forcing Rosebud to have an affair with him or to work at Open Stories Foundation. She willingly and knowingly entered into this unequal relationship. John Dehlin constructed the terms of the promise such that Rosebud would always be subordinate in this way. But how did she not know that?

Did she just choose to ignore the obvious?

How much sympathy or redress should she get after having consciously entered into this kind of unfavorable, unequal, and frankly creepy arrangement?

Now, not much. I think the passage of time and the facts show that at this point, the case is too old. This isn't a murder case. However, JD's recent admission of the "go away" promise he extracted from her puts Rosebud in a better light as far as her case was at the time, at least for me. She still acted the way she did and is still overplaying it today. However, I still place the value at $20,000.00 max back then and that would be after going to court and doing some discovery and perhaps a trial. She was only there for a short time and there is a good case for consent. I don't know how much JD did to invite the attention.

More information is definitely needed here. I would want to have all the texts, emails and other witnesses in front of me and I would definitely want to depose JD and Rosebud. We are looking through a glass darkly at this point. However, little bits like the supposed "go away" agreement are dripping out .....

[Kishkumen]

Doesn’t matter, really. At the end of the day the person with power entered into a quid pro quo relationship.

- Doc

LOL! What of this DOES matter now? John Dehlin had no power over her until she voluntarily gave it to him. She knew she was doing it. She knew she was entering into a dodgy situation that was immoral and unethical, and yet she freely did it anyway. But some people seem to think that doesn’t matter. In my mind it matters just as much as the end of the affair and her loss of her job. The latter do not happen without the immoral and unethical choices she made that precipitated the end. And it was all completely predictable.

[dastardly stem]

I would say so, yes. For over 150 pages there were people defending his case and doing a fairly good job at it. He came in and with a line or two eviscerated that position, it seems to me. I may be overstating it some, I suppose, since it appears there is some question persisting.

I imagined some sort of movie scene with a judge slamming his gavel while the court room erupts into some frenzy as John answered the couple of questions, all followed by the the prosecuting attorney yelling out "the witness has rights". thanks movies...at least you give me pictures to add to the imagination.

Yeah, in one way he cooked his own goose by coming here. At the same time, what he offered was important context for helping me understand the degree to which Rosebud knew exactly what she was getting into. She made a devil's bargain. Neither one of them look at all praiseworthy in this situation. I think they basically, at the beginning, wanted to play around sexually and work together. They ended up wanting different things.

I mean, if she was mixed up enough to agree to something like that as a volunteer, one wonders if it should carry over when she became an employee....

But even still, that he wanted to use that agreement as a means to force her out??? I mean case closed, here. It wasn't something they put down in writing and signed their name to as a condition of her employment was it? This is clearly using power and influence to force one party in a relationship out.

[Kishkumen]

Now, not much. I think the passage of time and the facts show that at this point, the case is too old. This isn't a murder case. However, John Dehlin's recent admission of the "go away" promise he extracted from her puts Rosebud in a better light as far as her case was at the time, at least for me. She still acted the way she did and is still overplaying it today. However, I still place the value at $20,000.00 max back then and that would be after going to court and doing some discovery and perhaps a trial. She was only there for a short time and there is a good case for consent. I don't know how much John Dehlin did to invite the attention.

More information is definitely needed here. I would want to have all the texts, emails and other witnesses in front of me and I would definitely want to depose John Dehlin and Rosebud. We are looking through a glass darkly at this point. However, little bits like the supposed "go away" agreement are dripping out .....

Yeah, as in, she agreed to do it and should have walked away at that point. On a purely human level my sympathy for both of them takes a huge dive once this comes to light.

[Jersey Girl]

Rosebud from one woman to another, and keep in mind this one is Jersey Girl. What you should have ultimately done (if you had lost future income except for a severance package) was to pack up your crap and walk out the door with you head held high. If you wanted revenge (and I wouldn't blame you), you should have kicked JD's ass in the professional arena. Not by trying to destroy him. But by transcending him.

Do not think for a single second that you have to attach yourself to an organization and certainly not to a man in order to be successful or to serve others.

The moment you inserted yourself (by invitation or otherwise) in the Open Stories Foundation you self sabotaged. When you started posting all your content on MDB, you self sabotaged again. When you posted the documents on your new website, you dug yourself deeper into the hole.

Stop digging. Stop digging and go radio silence for a while. Let go of the freaking rope. Reinvent yourself like I said earlier.

Then RISE.

[Kishkumen]

I mean, if she was mixed up enough to agree to something like that as a volunteer, one wonders if it should carry over when she became an employee....

But even still, that he wanted to use that agreement as a means to force her out??? I mean case closed, here. It wasn't something they put down in writing and signed their name to as a condition of her employment was it? This is clearly using power and influence to force one party in a relationship out.

It was the very condition upon which she became a member of the board and later an employee!

Why would it surprise you that he would expect her to keep a bad promise when she made a bad promise? Both of them showed their capability to do the stupid, immoral, and unethical. What surprises me is that anyone continues to have so much sympathy for Rosebud knowing that she made a bad promise in order to carry on a bad relationship that selfishly ignored the well being of two families and one company.

We should say, “A pox on both their houses!” Or maybe, “God help them all.” Instead it’s, “Get that bastard!”

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Doesn’t matter, really. At the end of the day the person with power entered into a quid pro quo relationship.

- Doc

LOL! What of this DOES matter now? John Dehlin had no power over her until she voluntarily gave it to him. She knew she was doing it. She knew she was entering into a dodgy situation that was immoral and unethical, and yet she freely did it anyway. But some people seem to think that doesn’t matter. In my mind it matters just as much as the end of the affair and her loss of her job. The latter do not happen without the immoral and unethical choices she made that precipitated the end. And it was all completely predictable.

I dunno. A dream job? Making money doing what you were volunteering to do before? Get to work with your AP? Get to be in the inner circle of ex-Mo celebrities? The bottom line was there was a quid pro quo agreement in place. She didn’t offer John a paid position. She didn’t have the power to do that. She clearly couldn’t get anyone fired. John could. She couldn’t.

edit: Just to be clear I have zero sympathy for Rosebud. I’ll also say that until JD copped to having a quid pro quo arrangement with Rosebud he came off a little more sympathetic. Not now. He’s way more conniving than I believed him to be before.

- Doc

[Kishkumen]

I dunno. A dream job? Making money doing what you were volunteering to do before? Get to work with your AP? Get to be in the inner circle of ex-Mo celebrities? The bottom line was there was a quid pro quo agreement in place. She didn’t offer John a paid position. She didn’t have the power to do that. She clearly couldn’t get anyone fired. John could. She couldn’t.

In other words she eagerly accepted his invitation to be sexually harassed and expected to benefit from that somehow.