LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

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_Jaybear
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Jaybear »

maklelan wrote: I openly acknowledge that the Church has long advocated for a global flood. That does not make it official doctrine.


Doctrine:
a : something that is taught
b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief.

I presume you used the term "advocated" instead of taught, because you are desperately trying to frame the presentation of the topic by the LDS Church as a mere suggestion, or concept presented to members for their thoughtful consideration. Nice try.

by the way, the global flood is not just one of many things that is taught by the LDS Church, its a core teaching. Not only is intertwined with the atonement, but who ever wrote the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham, presented a historical narrative built upon the global flood having literally occurred.
_Bazooka
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Bazooka »

SteelHead wrote:The doctrine resides in the scriptures there was a flood that covered all the earth and destroyed all flesh. The brethren have continually through official publications expounded upon the scripture to establish that it was a global flood that served as a baptism for the earth. That is the official doctrine of the church, as residing in the scripture and established by the prophets and the q12. As taught continually for the last 170+ years. As officially taught in conference addresses, ensign articles and lesson manuals. That you do not like it, or agree with it makes it no less doctrine.


Maklelan is in an untenable position.
He knows, intellectually, that a literal, universal flood is nonsense.
He knows that scripture portrays the flood as literal and universal.
He knows that his Church Leaders also portray the flood as literal and universal.
He knows that all the teaching materials of the Church portray the flood as literal and universal.
But, he knows, intellectually, that a literal, universal flood is nonsense. So he is left to try and make the case that what is in; the scriptures, the teaching manuals and words of Prophets, Seers and Revelators - is something other than doctrine.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_OSWIT
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _OSWIT »

maklelan wrote:....
I'm not avoiding anything. I openly acknowledge that the Church has long advocated for a global flood. That does not make it official doctrine. We wouldn't need an Ensign article trying to convince us the flood was global if it were already enshrined doctrine. The fact that the issue hasn't really been directly engaged much since then is indicative of the Church's reticence to put a firm foot down. You don't really think it's going to back off on all Native Americans as Lamanites and still stomp on the gas on a wordwide flood, do you?


It can't be doctrine, otherwise there wouldn't be articles in official church publication trying to convince people it's true. Ah, ok.
_Bazooka
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Bazooka »

Lest we forget what the Lord's Anointed think about the flood....

Jeffrey R. Holland wrote:The choicest part of this earthly creation was a garden “eastward in Eden” where God placed our first parents, Adam and Eve. This resplendent place filled with paradisiacal glory was located on that part of the land mass where the city Zion, or the New Jerusalem of the earth’s last days, would eventually be built. (See D&C 57:1–3, D&C 84:1–3; and Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:74.) After Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden, they dwelt at a place called Adam-ondi-Ahman, located in what is now Daviess County, Missouri. In that region this first family lived out their days, tilling the soil, tending the flocks, offering sacrifices, and learning the gospel of Jesus Christ from on high. There Adam prophesied concerning all the families of the earth and, three years before his death, called together the righteous remnant of his posterity and bestowed upon them his last blessing. The Lord appeared unto this faithful group and Adam’s family rose up “and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel.


Two generations later the Lord was so pained by that generation “without affection” (Moses 7:33) that he opened the windows of heaven and cleansed the entire earth with water. Thus, the “everlasting decree” (Ether 2:10) was first taught that he who will not obey the Lord in righteousness will be swept from his sacred land. The lesson would be tragically retaught in dispensations yet to come.

Holy scripture records that “after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof.” (Ether 13:2.) Such a special place needed now to be kept apart from other regions, free from the indiscriminate traveler as well as the soldier of fortune. To guarantee such sanctity the very surface of the earth was rent. In response to God’s decree, the great continents separated and the ocean rushed in to surround them. The promised place was set apart. Without habitation it waited for the fulfillment of God’s special purposes.

https://www.LDS.org/ensign/1976/06/a-promised-land

From the footnote of the article:
Jeffrey R. Holland was recently appointed Church Commissioner of Education.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_moksha
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _moksha »

maklelan wrote: You don't really think it's going to back off on all Native Americans as Lamanites and still stomp on the gas on a wordwide flood, do you?


That is a very good point. We are a prophetic and adaptive people.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Bazooka
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Bazooka »

From the Old Testament Seminary Manual

(4-14) Genesis 7:7. Were Any Saved by Means Other Than the Ark?

“During the first 2200 or so years of the earth’s history—that is, from the fall of Adam to the ministry of Melchizedek—it was a not uncommon occurrence for faithful members of the Church to be translated and taken into the heavenly realms without tasting death. Since that time there have been occasional special instances of translation, instances in which a special work of the ministry required it.

“… Methuselah, the son of Enoch, was not translated [with Enoch’s city], ‘that the covenants of the Lord might be fulfilled, which he made to Enoch; for he truly covenanted with Enoch that Noah should be of the fruit of his loins.’ (Moses 8:2.) But during the nearly 700 years from the translation of Enoch to the flood of Noah, it would appear that nearly all of the faithful members of the Church were translated, for ‘the Holy Ghost fell on many, and they were caught up by the powers of heaven into Zion.’ (Moses 7:27.)” (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 804.)

(4-15) Genesis 7:19. How Could the Flood Cover the Entire Earth, Including Mountains? What Was the Significance of This Immersion?

“I would like to know by what known law the immersion of the globe could be accomplished. It is explained here in a few words: ‘The windows of heaven were opened’ that is, the waters that exist throughout the space surrounding the earth from whence come these clouds from which the rain descends. That was one cause. Another cause was ‘the fountains of the great deep were broken up’—that is something beyond the oceans, something outside of the seas, some reservoirs of which we have no knowledge, were made to contribute to this event, and the waters were let loose by the hand and by the power of God; for God said He would bring a flood upon the earth and He brought it, but He had to let loose the fountains of the great deep, and pour out the waters from there, and when the flood commenced to subside, we are told ‘that the fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained, and the waters returned from off the earth.’ Where did they go to? From whence they came. Now, I will show you something else on the back of that. Some people talk very philosophically about tidal waves coming along. But the question is—How could you get a tidal wave out of the Pacific ocean, say, to cover the Sierra Nevadas? But the Bible does not tell us it was a tidal wave. It simply tells that ‘all the high hills that were under the whole heaven were covered. Fifteen cubits upwards did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.’ That is, the earth was immersed. It was a period of baptism.” (John Taylor, in Journal of Discourses, 26:74–75.)

Orson Pratt declared:

“The first ordinance instituted for the cleansing of the earth, was that of immersion in water; it was buried in the liquid element, and all things sinful upon the face of the earth were washed away. As it came forth from the ocean floor, like the new-born child, it was innocent; it rose to newness of life. It was its second birth from the womb of mighty waters—a new world issuing from the ruins of the old, clothed with all the innocence of this first creation.” (In Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:20.)

“The earth, in its present condition and situation, is not a fit habitation for the sanctified; but it abides the law of its creation, has been baptized with water, will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, and by-and-by will be prepared for the faithful to dwell upon” (Brigham Young, in Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:20).

(4-16) The Flood Was an Act of Love

“Now I will go back to show you how the Lord operates. He destroyed a whole world at one time save a few, whom he preserved for his own special purpose. And why? He had more than one reason for doing so. This antediluvian people were not only very wicked themselves, but having the power to propagate their species, they transmitted their unrighteous natures and desires to their children, and brought them up to indulge in their own wicked practices. And the spirits that dwelt in the eternal worlds knew this, and they knew very well that to be born of such parentage would entail upon themselves an infinite amount of trouble, misery and sin. And supposing ourselves to be of the number of unborn spirits, would it not be fair to presume that we would appeal to the Lord, crying, ‘Father, do you not behold the condition of this people, how corrupt and wicked they are?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘Is it then just that we who are now pure should take of such bodies and thus subject ourselves to most bitter experiences before we can be redeemed, according to the plan of salvation?’ ‘No,’ the Father would say, ‘it is not in keeping with my justice.’ ‘Well, what will you do in the matter; man has his free agency and cannot be coerced, and while he lives he has the power of perpetuating his species?’ ‘I will first send them my word, offering them deliverance from sin, and warning them of my justice, which shall certainly overtake them if they reject it, and I will destroy them from off the face of the earth, thus preventing their increase, and I will raise up another seed.’ Well, they did reject the preaching of Noah, the servant of God, who was sent to them, and consequently the Lord caused the rains of heaven to descend incessantly for forty days and nights, which flooded the land, and there being no means of escape, save for the eight souls who were obedient to the message, all the others were drowned. But, says the caviller, is it right that a just God should sweep off so many people? Is that in accordance with mercy? Yes, it was just to those spirits that had not received their bodies, and it was just and merciful too to those people guilty of the iniquity. Why? Because by taking away their earthly existence he prevented them from entailing their sins upon their posterity and degenerating them, and also prevented them from committing further acts of wickedness.” (John Taylor, in Journal of Discourses, 19:158–59.)

(4-17) Genesis 8:4. Where Did Noah Land When the Ark Came to Rest?

It should be remembered that the Garden of Eden was in the land now known as North America (see Reading 2-17). Although it is not known how far men had moved from that general location in the sixteen hundred years between the fall of Adam and the Flood, it is likely that Noah and his family lived somewhere in the general area. The Bible says that they landed on Mount Ararat when the ark finally came to rest. No location for Mount Ararat is given in the scriptures. The traditional site is a mountain found in northeastern Turkey near the border of Russia. Commenting on the distance traveled, Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said:

“We read that it was in the seventeenth day of the second month when the great deep was broken up, and the rain was forty days. The Ark landed at Ararat on the seventeenth day of the seventh month, therefore there were five full months of travel when the Lord drove the Ark to its final destiny. Without any question a considerable distance separated the point where the Ark commenced the journey and where it landed. There can be no question to contradict the fact that during the flood great changes were made on the face of the earth. The land surface was in the process of division into continents. The rivers mentioned in Genesis were rivers that existed in the garden of Eden long before the land was divided into continents and islands. [Genesis 2:11.]” (Answers to Gospel Questions, 2:94.)

https://www.LDS.org/manual/old-testamen ... s?lang=eng

Literal. Universal. Doctrinal.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Fence Sitter
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Fence Sitter »

What is it about the global flood that makes so many uneasy while at the same time able to accept so many other implausible events?

The earth stands still.
Parting the Red Sea.
Joshua making the walls of Jerico fall merely by blowing horns.
Loading enough animals onto an ark to repopulate an area even the size of a local flood event.
Jaradites floating across the sea in sealed barges.
The existence of a Hebrew Bible written in Egyptian or Reformed Egyptian in 600 BC.
Talking Asses
Job
Resurrecting dead people so they are exactly the same people.
The astronomy that Abraham taught the Egyptians

Look, if you are able to accept stuff like this as within the power of God, what's the big deal with accepting a global flood?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_moksha
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _moksha »

Bazooka wrote:
Literal. Universal. Doctrinal.


Simply knowing through the sciences that such a global flood did not occur means that it is far from universal for Mormons. We are capable of escaping even the most binding of past speculations because we can formulate new speculations. Ask the scientists in the BYU Biology, Engineering and Geology departments (but do it anonymously so they will not feel threatened by the non-science people wearing those Daedric mantles) and they will disaffirm such a global flood.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Bazooka
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Bazooka »

moksha wrote:
Bazooka wrote:
Literal. Universal. Doctrinal.


Simply knowing through the sciences that such a global flood did not occur means that it is far from universal for Mormons. We are capable of escaping even the most binding of past speculations because we can formulate new speculations. Ask the scientists in the BYU Biology, Engineering and Geology departments (but do it anonymously so they will not feel threatened by the non-science people wearing those Daedric mantles) and they will disaffirm such a global flood.


Of course they will, because a Global Flood is nonsense.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Craig Paxton
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Re: LDS Apologist Walking Away from Universal Flood

Post by _Craig Paxton »

F.A.I.R.’s position that one can now pick and choose what one wishes to believe is a slippery slope but it is in my humble opinion the ONLY path forward for the church. There have been too many truth claims made by the church over the years that have been or are beginning to unravel. So many things that were once true are now empirically false. By allowing members to become more NOMish in their belief choices, allowing Mormonism to morph into a cafeteria of optional belief choices…the church will be able to retain membership while at the same time move the church to a more nuanced belief platform.

While this will work in the short term, eventually as has been discussed in this thread, every doctrinal position of the church becomes vulnerable to being undermined, If God’s prophets have been so wrong in their ability to discern revelatory communications from God all mighty regarding the universal flood, evolution, marriage equality, the priesthood ban, polygamy, Zion, Consecration, Penalties etc. who’s to say that they haven’t also gotten every other church doctrine wrong as well.

Maklelan, BC, MG etc are actually examples of the only path forward. They are the pioneers of a new future for Mormonism. As soon as the greater body of church members catch up to this new nuanced, cafeteria belief model espoused by these posters the better the church as a whole will be. No longer will they be anchored to foundational truth claims that have been shown to be false or misunderstood. The sooner the greater church membership can embrace an understanding that its leaders are mere men who more times than not...get it wrong… the better for us all.

I see a future when the bulk of LDS core doctrine can be taken literally by some or viewed allegorically by others...as long as they together embrace the one core belief that can never be allowed to be nuanced...“the church is true”.

The real question is how this emerging worldview will ultimately impact the health of the church. Can Mormonism survive and thrive when nothing matters and every truth claim is up for personal interpretation? I guess time will tell.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace

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