GrandMoffTarkin wrote: When a TBM says that the "church is true" they are not claiming that it is the best church for them and that another church may be a better fit for someone else and therefore just as true for that person. Rather, they are saying that CJCLDS is the only true and living church endorsed by the god of the universe.
Yet others feel the same about their religion...they can't all be right.
As being a grumpy old man, my conclusion is none of them are right.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
As I scrolled down the link, I started off reading about the efficacy of the Catholic Church as an institution, got to the protestant stuff about faith in God and finished up with the efficacy of the LDS Church as an institution.
My conclusion? Testimonies can be like Oreos, with a sweet and delectable middle.
moksha wrote:As I scrolled down the link, I started off reading about the efficacy of the Catholic Church as an institution, got to the protestant stuff about faith in God and finished up with the efficacy of the LDS Church as an institution.
My conclusion? Testimonies can be like Oreos, with a sweet and delectable middle.
Haha, nice. So, are you suggesting that there is some kind of kernel of truth somewhere in the middle of the spiritual experiences? There is some difference to the inside and the outside? I love the image, but can you explain it a bit more?
GrandMoffTarkin wrote:False analogy. The type of testimony we are talking about is about absolute truth, not about loving one's wife. When a TBM says that the "church is true" they are not claiming that it is the best church for them and that another church may be a better fit for someone else and therefore just as true for that person. Rather, they are saying that CJCLDS is the only true and living church endorsed by the god of the universe.
Yet others feel the same about their religion...they can't all be right.
Now, you might say, that's not what the feeling they experienced actually meant, it's just how they interpreted it. And I'd agree with you if you said that.
As a Christian, I feel that my testimony is most importantly what God has done for me through the Lord Jesus Christ. It is nothing really to do with what "church" I attend. God the Father, Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit are with me wherever I am. This is what Christianity is all about.
Isn't it true that in order for your spiritual feeling to be accurate Jesus of Nazareth must have been the Son of God who atoned for our sins? What if he was just a prophet and didn't do any of that, and the Muslim who had a similar feeling about Islam generally is correct (or you're both wrong)
What if the Jews are right and Jesus was just an eccentric preacher?
There is still clearly some absolute truth that you feel has been spiritually confirmed to you. Yet others have had what they call spiritual confirmations that if true, mean that what you think was confirmed to you is actually false.
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence - Hitch
CurrentlyAlive wrote: Haha, nice. So, are you suggesting that there is some kind of kernel of truth somewhere in the middle of the spiritual experiences? There is some difference to the inside and the outside? I love the image, but can you explain it a bit more?
There are multiple levels of understanding to be found within spiritual experiences. Those that speak to a positive individual realization and enhancement are of a different nature than those who which plug an organization of bearing the truth.
I appreciate knowing that brushing my teeth is beneficial and if that understanding comes from an epiphany, so much the better. Hearing a plug for new and improved Crest Toothpaste is something different, brushing becomes incidental to selling Crest.
GrandMoffTarkin wrote:False analogy. The type of testimony we are talking about is about absolute truth, not about loving one's wife.
Either i love my wife or i do not...as with you and your wife...correct? The wife is not the point, the love is...analogy valid. Love is an absolute condition.
GrandMoffTarkin wrote:When a TBM says that the "church is true" they are not claiming that it is the best church for them and that another church may be a better fit for someone else and therefore just as true for that person. Rather, they are saying that CJCLDS is the only true and living church endorsed by the god of the universe.
OK...no
GrandMoffTarkin wrote:Yet others feel the same about their religion...they can't all be right.
why not? It is perfectly reasonable for them to be correct, just as I am correct when I proclaim that my wife is the best wife ever.....because it is true, if you loved her as your wife you would agree. This notion that "if they all can't be right then they all must be wrong" is juvenile. It is quite possible, and more likely, that at least one is correct....your inability to discern that does not make it any less true.
GrandMoffTarkin wrote:Now, you might say, that's not what the feeling they experienced actually meant, it's just how they interpreted it. And I'd agree with you if you said that.
I am not saying that.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
GrandMoffTarkin wrote:When a TBM says that the "church is true" they are not claiming that it is the best church for them and that another church may be a better fit for someone else and therefore just as true for that person. Rather, they are saying that CJCLDS is the only true and living church endorsed by the god of the universe.
OK...no
This is exactly what I understood my testimony and spiritual experiences to mean. I always meant that I knew the LDS church to be the one and only true and authorized church recognized by God. Are you saying that the majority of believing Mormons don't mean this when they bear testimony? What do they mean, then? What do you mean?
The complete and utter absence of hate and the complete and utter presence of affection, compassion, and charity which brings about a state of one being unable to hold conscious the sense of self. Put simply Love is good. But perhaps more accurately- Love is defined not by the conditions of the words and language used here, but rather by your spiritual discernment of what you're reading, thinking, and feeling.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
subgenius wrote:The complete and utter absence of hate and the complete and utter presence of affection, compassion, and charity which brings about a state of one being unable to hold conscious the sense of self.
Great phrase, but all of those words are non absolute, subjective measurements. Where you draw the line for where dislike ends and hate begins might not be the same place I do etc. Love is an emotion and as such unable to be defined in absolute terms because it means different things to different people. For instance, cold and hot can be defined in absolute terms by using an agreed standard of measurement. Love cannot. Love is a variable and ambiguous term.
Love is defined not by the conditions of the words and language used here, but rather by your spiritual discernment of what you're reading, thinking, and feeling.
I don't think that you can suggest spiritual discernment is a reliable method of determining an absolute. The OP shows us that.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)