LittleNipper wrote:others who usually may not read their Bibles seem to be reading along and considering my paraphrasing of each chapter. And that is what I would consider real a miracle.
You set a low bar....
LittleNipper wrote:Maybe you keep moving the bar..?
Maybe you keep ducking under it....?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
2 Chronicles 23:1-21 After seventh years priest Jehoiada selected Azariah son of Jeroham, Ishmael son of Jehohanan, Azariah son of Obed, Maaseiah son of Adaiah, and Elishaphat son of Zicri as his associates. They spread throughout Judah and called in the Levites from all the towns in Judah along with the heads of families. They met in Jerusalem. The gathering met in The Temple and made an agreement.
Jehoiada showed them young prince Joash and addressed them: “Here he is—the son of the king. He is going to rule just as God promised regarding the sons of David. Now this is what you must do: 1/3rd of the priests and Levites who come on duty on the Sabbath are to be positioned as guards at the gates; another 1/3rd will guard the palace. The remaining 1/3rd will guard the foundation gate. All the people will gather in the courtyards of The Temple of God. No one may enter The Temple of God except the priests and select Levites—being consecrated. The general public must do the work assigned them. The Levites are to form a protective ring around the young king, weapons handy. Anyone trying to break through the ranks is to be killed. they are to stay with the king at all times.
All the Levites and officers obeyed the orders of Jehoiada the priest. Each took charge of his men, both those who came on duty on the Sabbath and those who went off duty on the Sabbath, for Jehoiada the priest hadn’t exempted any of them from duty. Then the priest armed the officers with spears and the large and small shields originally belonging to King David that were stored in The Temple of God. Well-armed, the guards took up their assigned positions for protecting the king, from one end of The Temple to the other, surrounding both Altar and Temple.
The priest brought the young prince into view, crowned him, handed him the scroll of God’s covenant, and along with his anointed him king. As Jehoiada and his sons anointed Joash they all shouted, “Long live the king!”
Athaliah, hearing all the clamor, with people running around and praising a king, came to The Temple to see what was going on. Shocked, she saw Joash standing at the entrance flanked by the captains and heralds, with everybody beside themselves with joy, trumpets blaring, the choir and orchestra leading the praise. Athaliah ripped her robes in dismay and shouted, “Treason! Treason!”
Jehoiada the priest ordered the military officers to drag her outside—and kill anyone who tries to side with her (The priest had warned, not to kill her inside The Temple.) They dragged her out to the palace’s horse corral and killed her.
Jehoiada made a covenant between himself and the king and the citizens: they were to be God’s special people.
Citizens poured into the temple of Baal and tore it down, smashing altar and images. They killed Mattan the priest of Baal in front of the altar.
Jehoiada turned the care of God’s house over to the priests and Levites, the way David had directed originally. They were to offer Burnt-Offerings God as set out through Moses, and with praise and song as directed by David. He assigned guards at the gates of God’s Temple so that no one who was unprepared could enter. Then he got everyone together—officers, nobles, governors, and the ciizens—and escorted the king down from The Temple of God, through the Upper Gate, and placed Joash on the royal throne. Everybody celebrated the event. And the city was safe and undisturbed—Athaliah had been slain.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And in the seventh year hath Jehoiada strengthened himself, and taketh the heads of the hundreds, even Azariah son of Jeroham, and Ishmael son of Jehohanan, and Azariah son of Obed, and Maaseiah son of Adaiah, and Elishaphat son of Zichri, with him into covenant.
2 And they go round about in Judah, and gather the Levites out of all the cities of Judah, and heads of the fathers of Israel, and come in unto Jerusalem,
3 and all the assembly make a covenant in the house of God with the king, and he saith to them, `Lo, the son of the king doth reign, as Jehovah spake concerning the sons of David.
4 `This [is] the thing that ye do: The third of you, going in on the sabbath, of the priests, and of the Levites, [are] for gatekeepers of the thresholds,
5 and the third [are] at the house of the king, and the third at the gate of the foundation, and all the people [are] in the courts of the house of Jehovah.
6 `And none doth enter the house of Jehovah except the priests, and those ministering of the Levites (they go in for they [are] holy), and all the people keep the watch of Jehovah:
7 and the Levites have compassed the king round about, each with his weapon in his hand, and he who hath gone in unto the house is put to death; and be ye with the king in his coming in and in his going out.'
8 And the Levites and all Judah do according to all that Jehoiada the priest hath commanded, and take each his men going in on the sabbath, with those going out on the sabbath, for Jehoiada the priest hath not let away the courses.
9 And Jehoiada the priest giveth to the heads of the hundreds the spears, and the shields, and the bucklers that [are] king David's, that [are] in the house of God;
10 and he stationeth the whole of the people, and each his dart in his hand, from the right shoulder of the house unto the left shoulder of the house, at the altar, and at the house, by the king, round about.
11 And they bring out the son of the king, and put upon him the crown, and the testimony, and cause him to reign; and Jehoiada and his sons anoint him, and say, `Let the king live!'
12 And Athaliah heareth the voice of the people who are running, and who are praising the king, and she cometh in unto the people in the house of Jehovah,
13 and seeth, and lo, the king is standing by his pillar in the entrance, and the heads, and the trumpets [are] by the king, and all the people of the land rejoicing and shouting with trumpets, and the singers with instruments of song, and the teachers, to praise, and Athaliah rendeth her garments, and saith, `Conspiracy, conspiracy.'
14 And Jehoiada the priest bringeth out the heads of the hundreds, inspectors of the force, and saith unto them, `Take her out from within the rows, and he who hath gone after her is put to death by the sword;' for the priest said, `Put her not to death [in] the house of Jehovah.'
15 And they make for her sides, and she cometh in unto the entrance of the gate of the horses at the house of the king, and they put her to death there.
16 And Jehoiada maketh a covenant between him, and between all the people, and between the king, to be for a people to Jehovah;
17 and all the people enter the house of Baal, and break it down, yea, his altars and his images they have broken, and Mattan priest of Baal they have slain before the altars.
18 And Jehoiada putteth the offices of the house of Jehovah into the hand of the priests the Levites whom David had apportioned over the house of Jehovah, to cause to ascend the burnt-offerings of Jehovah, as written in the law of Moses, with joy, and with singing, by the hands of David;
19 and he stationeth the gatekeepers over the gates of the house of Jehovah, and the unclean in anything doth not go in.
20 And he taketh the heads of the hundreds, and the honourable ones, and the rulers among the people, and all the people of the land, and bringeth down the king from the house of Jehovah, and they come in through the high gate to the house of the king, and cause the king to sit on the throne of the kingdom.
21 And all the people of the land rejoice, and the city hath been quiet, and Athaliah they have put to death by the sword.
LittleNipper wrote:Genesis 37:1-36 . . . So when the Ishmaelites, who were Midianite traders, came by,
The Ishmaelites were Midianite traders? That's pure and utter nonsense. Ishmaelites and Midianites were completely different groups of people, and in v. 28 the Midianites sell Joseph to the Ishmaelites, who take him to Egypt (even though v. 36 says the Midianites themselves took Joseph to Egypt). Y'see, in this pericope, there are actually two different versions of this story that are completely irreconcilable. Evidently you think just making up this identification makes all the problems go away. You're not reading the Bible here, or providing a translation. You're manipulating the Bible to be what you believe to be, in direct contradiction to what the Bible itself actually says. Observe:
18 And they see him from afar, even before he draweth near unto them, and they conspire against him to put him to death.
19 And they say one unto another, `Lo, this man of the dreams cometh;
20 and now, come, and we slay him, and cast him into one of the pits, and have said, An evil beast hath devoured him; and we see what his dreams are.'
21 And Reuben heareth, and delivereth him out of their hand, and saith, `Let us not smite the life;'
22 and Reuben saith unto them, `Shed no blood; cast him into this pit which [is] in the wilderness, and put not forth a hand upon him,' -- in order to deliver him out of their hand, to bring him back unto his father.
23 And it cometh to pass, when Joseph hath come unto his brethren, that they strip Joseph of his coat, the long coat which [is] upon him,
24 and take him and cast him into the pit, and the pit [is] empty, there is no water in it.
25 And they sit down to eat bread, and they lift up their eyes, and look, and lo, a company of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead, and their camels bearing spices, and balm, and myrrh, going to take [them] down to Egypt.
So they want to kill him, but Reuben convinces them to not kill him, and when he's in this pit they see Ishmaelites coming.
26 And Judah saith unto his brethren, `What gain when we slay our brother, and have concealed his blood?
27 Come, and we sell him to the Ishmaelites, and our hands are not on him, for he [is] our brother -- our flesh;' and his brethren hearken.
And now they decide all over again not to kill him, but this time it's Judah doing the convincing.
28 And Midianite merchantmen pass by and they draw out and bring up Joseph out of the pit, and sell Joseph to the Ishmaelites for twenty silverlings, and they bring Joseph into Egypt.
And here MIdianites pull Joseph out of the pit and they sell Joseph to Ishmaelites. Joseph's brothers have nothing whatsoever to do with the sale of Joseph to the Ishmaelites. The Midianites do it. That is absolutely unequivocal in the text.
29 And Reuben returneth unto the pit, and lo, Joseph is not in the pit, and he rendeth his garments,
30 and he returneth unto his brethren, and saith, `The lad is not, and I -- whither am I going?'
31 And they take the coat of Joseph, and slaughter a kid of the goats, and dip the coat in the blood,
32 and send the long coat, and they bring [it] in unto their father, and say, `This have we found; discern, we pray thee, whether it [is] thy son's coat or not?'
33 And he discerneth it, and saith, `My son's coat! an evil beast hath devoured him; torn -- torn is Joseph!'
34 And Jacob rendeth his raiment, and putteth sackcloth on his loins, and becometh a mourner for his son many days,
35 and all his sons and all his daughters rise to comfort him, and he refuseth to comfort himself, and saith, `For -- I go down mourning unto my son, to Sheol,' and his father weepeth for him.
So now Reuben goes to take Joseph out, but he's gone. Reuben is unaware that Midianites have sold him to Ishmaelites, and there's no indication whatsoever that the other brothers know either.
36 And the Medanites have sold him unto Egypt, to Potiphar, a eunuch of Pharaoh, head of the executioners.
Now the text says the Midianites took him down to Egypt and sold him to Potiphar. But this is a direct contradiction of v. 28, which says Midianites sold him to Ishmaelites, who took him to Egypt. So how do we make sense of an internally contradictory text? Well, we separate out the repeated narrative elements. When we separate the two decisions to kill, the two sales, the two groups of foreigners, etc., we're left with two different and completely coherent narratives:
Narrative 1:
19 They said to one another, "Here comes that dreamer! 20Come now, let us kill him and throw him into one of the pits; and we can say, 'A savage beast devoured him.' We shall see what comes of his dreams!" 23 When Joseph came up to his brothers, they stripped Joseph of his tunic, the ornamented tunic that he was wearing. 25 Looking up, they saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead, their camels bearing gum, balm, and ladanum to be taken to Egypt. 26 Then Judah said to his brothers, "What do we gain by killing our brother and covering up his blood? 27 Come, let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, but let us not do away with him ourselves. After all, he is our brother, our own flesh." His brothers agreed. They sold Joseph for twenty pieces of silver to the Ishmaelites, who brought Joseph to Egypt. 31 Then they took Joseph's tunic, slaughtered a kid, and dipped the tunic in the blood. 32 They had the ornamented tunic taken to their father, and they said, "We found this. Please examine it; is it your son's tunic or not?" 33 He recognized it, and said, "My son's tunic! A savage beast devoured him! Joseph was torn by a beast!" 34 Jacob rent his clothes, put sackcloth on his loins, and observed mourning for his son many days. 35 All his sons and daughters sought to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted, saying, "No, I will go down mourning to my son in Sheol." Thus his father bewailed him.
Narrative 2:
18 They saw him from afar, and before he came close to them they conspired to kill him. 21 But when Reuben heard it, he tried to save him from them. He said, "Let us not take his life." 22 And Reuben went on, "Shed no blood! Cast him into that pit out in the wilderness, but do not touch him yourselves"—intending to save him from them and restore him to his father. 24 They took him and cast him into the pit. The pit was empty; there was no water in it. "Then they sit down to a meal. 28 When Midianite traders passed by, they pulled Joseph up out of the pit. 29 When Reuben returned to the pit and saw that Joseph was not in the pit, he rent his clothes. 30 Returning to his brothers, he said, "The boy is gone! Now, what am I to do?" 36 The Midianites, meanwhile, sold him in Egypt to Potiphar, a courtier of Pharaoh and his chief steward.
Wow, look at that! Two perfectly consistent, self-contained, and coherent narratives with different sequences of events that can be easily teased right out of one jumbled and contradictory larger narrative. And you don't have to ignore what the text says or make up any nonsensical things like that Ishmaelites and Midianites were the same people!
Maklelan, did they not teach the following at BYU? Please see: http://www.apologeticspress.org/apconte ... rticle=748 Wow, look at that! A perfect example of how Biblical passages can clarify other Biblical passages. Of course I'm sure all Hebrews of the period would have already known this. Maybe they were too busy defending the Book of Mormon at BYU? I guess you missed this when I went through Judges some time ago...
LittleNipper wrote:Maklelan, did they not teach the following at BYU? Please see: http://www.apologeticspress.org/apconte ... rticle=748 Wow, look at that! A perfect example of how Biblical passages can clarify other Biblical passages. Of course I'm sure all Hebrews of the period would have already known this. Maybe they were too busy defending the Book of Mormon at BYU? I guess you missed this when I went through Judges some time ago...
Well, first, the problem is not just the mixup of Ishmaelites and Midianites, since the Midianites sell Joseph to Ishmaelites, but then the text contradicts itself regarding who took him to Egypt. If Ishmaelites are Midianites, why does the text say the Midianites sold Joseph to Ishmaelites? That's not how synonyms work. It also has the brothers have to decide twice not to kill Joseph. Next, your little apologetic attempt to save the Bible from itself fails. Not only is that not at all how synonyms work, but Judg 6:3 points out that Midian was fighting against Israel with the Amalekites and the "children of the east." Guess where Ishmaelites were from. Ishmaelites were confederated with Midian, which is why there were Ishmaelites with gold earrings among those the Israelites defeated. When a group goes up against a confederated enemy, they usually just refer to the latter by the name of the main ethnicity. Your apologetic fails terribly, but now it's time for you to tell me "Nu-uh!" because you say so.
LittleNipper wrote:Maklelan, did they not teach the following at BYU? Please see: http://www.apologeticspress.org/apconte ... rticle=748 Wow, look at that! A perfect example of how Biblical passages can clarify other Biblical passages. Of course I'm sure all Hebrews of the period would have already known this. Maybe they were too busy defending the Book of Mormon at BYU? I guess you missed this when I went through Judges some time ago...
Well, first, the problem is not just the mixup of Ishmaelites and Midianites, since the Midianites sell Joseph to Ishmaelites, but then the text contradicts itself regarding who took him to Egypt. If Ishmaelites are Midianites, why does the text say the Midianites sold Joseph to Ishmaelites? That's not how synonyms work. It also has the brothers have to decide twice not to kill Joseph. Next, your little apologetic attempt to save the Bible from itself fails. Not only is that not at all how synonyms work, but Judg 6:3 points out that Midian was fighting against Israel with the Amalekites and the "children of the east." Guess where Ishmaelites were from. Ishmaelites were confederated with Midian, which is why there were Ishmaelites with gold earrings among those the Israelites defeated. When a group goes up against a confederated enemy, they usually just refer to the latter by the name of the main ethnicity. Your apologetic fails terribly, but now it's time for you to tell me "Nu-uh!" because you say so.
The Ishmaelites were descendants of Ishmael who was born to Abraham by Hagar. Ishmael had to separate from Abraham and go across the Jordan. God prospered him, and after several generations the Ishmaelites had grown to a large enough group where they became involved with trade. The Midianites were also descendants of Abraham by Keturah who Abraham married after Sarah died (Gen. 25:1). And one of Keturah's sons was Midian. So Midian was a half-brother to Isaac, and Midian was also a half brother to Ishmael. Their lines were apparently intermarrying with the result that the terms Midianites and Ishmaelites were beginning to be used interchangeably. And so in writing of this, Moses used the terms interchangeably.
Perhaps the Midianites were the ones who arranged the buying and selling of Joseph. The Midianites are described as merchants in Genesis 37:28. And, in reading Genesis 39:1 and the second part of Genesis 37:28, it seems clear that the Ishmaelites physically carried out the transport and sale of Joseph. Both tribes were responsible and accountable for the sale of Joseph.
Whether there were two caravans traveling together, one of Ishmaelites and another of Midianites, or whether there was one caravan consisting of both Ishmalites and Midianites, or whether the caravan consisted of Midianites only, there is no contradiction in the passage. When the Midianite traders passed by, the brothers sold Joseph to them. Joseph himself said that it was the brothers who had sold him. In any event, Genesis 37:28 mentions both tribal names in connection with the sale of Joseph. And that alone undermines any claim of contradiction.
2 Chronicles 24:1-27 Joash was 7 when he became king --- reigning 40 years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Zibiah, from Beersheba. Joash tried hard to please the Lord during the lifetime of Jehoiada the priest. Jehoiada arranged two marriages for him, and he had sons and daughters.
Joash decided to repair the Temple. He summoned the priests and Levites and gave them these instructions: “Go to all the cities of Judah and collect offerings for the building fund so that we can maintain the Temple in good repair without delay.” However, the Levites took their time.
The king called for Jehoiada the High Priest and asked him why hadn't he demanded that the Levites go out and collect the Temple taxes from the cities of Judah and from Jerusalem? The tax law enacted by Moses needed to be enforced to fix the Temple.
The followers of wicked Athaliah had ransacked the Temple. Everything dedicated to the worship of God had been taken to the temple of Baalim. The king instructed that a chest be made and set outside the Temple gate. A proclamation was sent to all the cities of Judah and throughout Jerusalem telling citizens to bring to the Lord the tax that Moses had assessed upon Israel. All the leaders and the people were glad, and brought money and placed it in the chest until it was full.
The Levites took the chest to the king’s accounting office, where the recording secretary and the representative of the High Priest counted the money and took the chest back to the Temple again. And money continued to pour in. The king and Jehoiada gave the money to the building contractors, who hired masons and carpenters to restore the Temple, and to foundrymen, who made articles of iron and brass. The work went forward, and the Temple was in much better condition than before. When all was finished, the remaining money was taken to the king and Jehoiada, and it was agreed to use it for making gold and silver spoons and bowls used for incense, and for making the untensils used in the sacrifices and offerings.
Burnt offerings were sacrificed continually during the lifetime of Jehoiada the priest. He lived to be 130, and was buried in the City of David among the kings because he had done so much good for Israel, for God, and for the Temple.
After his death, the leaders of Judah came to King Joash and induced him to abandon the Temple of the God of their ancestors and to worship idols instead! So the wrath of God came down upon Judah and Jerusalem again. God sent prophets to turn them back to the Lord, but the people wouldn’t listen. The Spirit of God came upon Zechariah, Jehoiada’s son. He called a meeting of all the people. Standing before them upon a platform, he said, “God wants to know why you are disobeying his commandments. For when you do, everything you try fails. You forsake the Lord. He has forsaken you.”
The leaders plotted to kill Zechariah, and finally King Joash himself ordered him executed in the court of the Temple. That was how King Joash repaid Jehoiada for his love and loyalty—by killing his son. Zechariah’s last words as he died were, “Lord, see what they are doing and pay them back.”
Later the Syrian army arrived and conquered Judah and Jerusalem, killing all the leaders of the nation and sending back great quantities of booty to the king of Damascus. It was a triumph for the tiny Syrian army. The Lord let the great army of Judah be conquered by them because they had forsaken the Lord God --- executing judgment upon Joash. The Syrians left—leaving Joash severely wounded—his own officials decided to assassinate him, as he lay in bed, for murdering the son of Jehoiada the priest. He was buried him in the City of David, but not in the cemetery of the kings. The conspirators were Zabad, whose mother was Shimeath, a woman from Ammon; and Jehozabad, whose mother was Shimrith, a woman from Moab.
More details were recorded the Annals of the Kings concerning the sons of Joash and the curses laid upon Joash, plus the restoration of the Temple. When Joash died, his son Amaziah became the new king.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 A son of seven years [is] Joash in his reigning, and forty years he hath reigned in Jerusalem, and the name of his mother [is] Zibiah of Beer-Sheba.
2 And Joash doth that which is right in the eyes of Jehovah all the days of Jehoiada the priest.
3 And Jehoiada taketh for him two wives, and he begetteth sons and daughters.
4 And it cometh to pass after this, it hath been with the heart of Joash to renew the house of Jehovah,
5 and he gathereth the priests and the Levites, and saith to them, `Go out to the cities of Judah, and gather from all Israel money to strengthen the house of your God sufficiently year by year, and ye, ye do haste to the matter;' and the Levites have not hasted.
6 And the king calleth for Jehoiada the head, and saith to him, `Wherefore hast thou not required of the Levites to bring in out of Judah and out of Jerusalem the tribute of Moses, servant of Jehovah, and of the assembly of Israel, for the tent of the testimony?
7 for sons of Athaliah, the wicked one, have broken up the house of God, and also, all the holy things of the house of Jehovah they have prepared for Baalim.'
8 And the king speaketh, and they make one chest, and put it at the gate of the house of Jehovah without,
9 and give an intimation in Judah and in Jerusalem to bring in to Jehovah the tribute of Moses, servant of God, [laid] on Israel in the wilderness.
10 And all the heads, and all the people rejoice, and they bring in, and cast into the chest, unto completion.
11 And it cometh to pass, at the time one bringeth in the chest for the inspection of the king by the hand of the Levites, and at their seeing that the money [is] abundant, that a scribe of the king hath come in, and an officer of the head-priest, and they empty the chest, and take it up and turn it back unto its place; thus they have done day by day, and gather money in abundance.
12 And the king and Jehoiada give it unto the doers of the work of the service of the house of Jehovah, and they are hiring hewers and artificers to renew the house of Jehovah, and also -- to artificers in iron and brass to strengthen the house of Jehovah.
13 And those doing the business work, and there goeth up lengthening to the work by their hand, and they establish the house of God, by its proper measure, and strengthen it.
14 And at their completing [it], they have brought in before the king and Jehoiada the rest of the money, and they make it vessels for the house of Jehovah, vessels of serving, and of offering up, and spoons, even vessels of gold and silver; and they are causing burnt-offerings to ascend in the house of Jehovah continually, all the days of Jehoiada.
15 And Jehoiada is aged and satisfied with days, and dieth -- a son of a hundred and thirty years in his death,
16 and they bury him in the city of David, with the kings, for he hath done good in Israel, and with God, and his house.
17 And after the death of Jehoiada come in have heads of Judah, and bow themselves to the king; then hath the king hearkened unto them,
18 and they forsake the house of Jehovah, God of their fathers, and serve the shrines and the idols, and there is wrath upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their guilt.
19 And He sendeth among them prophets, to bring them back unto Jehovah, and they testify against them, and they have not given ear;
20 and the Spirit of God hath clothed Zechariah son of Jehoiada the priest, and he standeth over-against the people, and saith to them, `Thus said God, Why are ye transgressing the commands of Jehovah, and prosper not? because ye have forsaken Jehovah -- He doth forsake you.'
21 And they conspire against him, and stone him with stones by the command of the king, in the court of the house of Jehovah,
22 and Joash the king hath not remembered the kindness that Jehoiada his father did with him, and slayeth his son, and in his death he said, `Jehovah doth see, and require.'
23 And it cometh to pass, at the turn of the year, come up hath the force of Aram against him, and they come in unto Judah and Jerusalem, and destroy all the heads of the people from the people, and all their spoil they have sent to the king of Damascus,
24 for with few men have the force of Aram come in, and Jehovah hath given into their hand a mighty force for multitude, because they have forsaken Jehovah, God of their fathers; and with Joash they have executed judgments.
25 And in their going from him -- for they left him with many diseases -- his servants themselves have conspired against him, for the blood of the sons of Jehoiada the priest, and slay him on his bed, and he dieth; and they bury him in the city of David, and have not buried him in the graves of the kings.
26 And these [are] those conspiring against him, Zabad son of Shimeath the Ammonitess, and Jehozabad son of Shimrith the Moabitess.
27 As to his sons, and the greatness of the burden upon him, and the foundation of the house of God, lo, they are written on the `Inquiry' of the book of the Kings; and reign doth Amaziah his son in his stead.
LittleNipper wrote:The Ishmaelites were descendants of Ishmael who was born to Abraham by Hagar.
That's the folk etymology developed by the editors of the patriarchal narrative, but that's not where Ishmaelites actually came from.
LittleNipper wrote:Ishmael had to separate from Abraham and go across the Jordan. God prospered him, and after several generations the Ishmaelites had grown to a large enough group where they became involved with trade. The Midianites were also descendants of Abraham by Keturah who Abraham married after Sarah died (Gen. 25:1).
I thought you said they were the same people. Again, the patriarchal narrative account is a folk etymology. It's made up. Not all Arabian peoples are descended from one many who lived in the second millennium BCE. Good heavens, you really could use a history class or two.
LittleNipper wrote:And one of Keturah's sons was Midian. So Midian was a half-brother to Isaac, and Midian was also a half brother to Ishmael.
And they became completely distinct national identities.
LittleNipper wrote:Their lines were apparently intermarrying with the result that the terms Midianites and Ishmaelites were beginning to be used interchangeably.
No, that's the concept you have to invent in order to make the problems with the Joseph account go away. You're absolutely flagrantly begging the question.
LittleNipper wrote:And so in writing of this, Moses used the terms interchangeably.
Then why did the Midianites sell Joseph to the Ishmaelites, who took him down to Egypt, only to have the Midianites take him down to Egypt a few verses later? Your juvenile eisegesis has to get cranked up to eleven to make those facts go away.
LittleNipper wrote:Perhaps the Midianites were the ones who arranged the buying and selling of Joseph.
And now you're making guesses as to how your invented scenario could still play out instead of just letting the facts stand.
LittleNipper wrote:The Midianites are described as merchants in Genesis 37:28. And, in reading Genesis 39:1 and the second part of Genesis 37:28, it seems clear that the Ishmaelites physically carried out the transport and sale of Joseph. Both tribes were responsible and accountable for the sale of Joseph.
Wait, you just said they were interchangeable. Now they're different tribes? So you have two separate tribes with specific names, but the author can arbitrarily switch their names with no reason in view? DO you imagine that people reading this crap are nine years old? How infantile does someone have to be to believe this?
LittleNipper wrote:Whether there were two caravans traveling together, one of Ishmaelites and another of Midianites, or whether there was one caravan consisting of both Ishmalites and Midianites, or whether the caravan consisted of Midianites only, there is no contradiction in the passage.
Well, sure, if you ignore what the text actually says and are allowed to just invent facts and scenarios to plug in wherever you have a contradiction, you can make anything look like it's consistent. If a person is an adult, though, they know that that's just manipulating the text to make it say what you want.
LittleNipper wrote:When the Midianite traders passed by, the brothers sold Joseph to them.
Nope. The text explicitly says that the Midianites took Joseph out of the pit and sold him to the Ishmaelites. The brothers had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it, provided you actually care what the text says.
LittleNipper wrote:Joseph himself said that it was the brothers who had sold him.
Yes, because that text relies upon narrative 1 instead of narrative 2. You can't say there's no contradiction because another part of the text contradicts. That's just asinine.
LittleNipper wrote:In any event, Genesis 37:28 mentions both tribal names in connection with the sale of Joseph.
Yes, because the Midianites sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites in one of the narratives.
LittleNipper wrote:And that alone undermines any claim of contradiction.
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And that is an absolutely laughable fallacy. Good grief, it's like arguing with a toddler.
Maklelan, Nipper is a young earth creationist. I am not sure if he has been blunt about it but he may be in agreement with the theory that the world looks old because God made it to look that way. I have seen fundamentalist leaders say that. I think it is the only possible rational view for young earth creationists. The implication is that God made up a world history which does not agree with the Bible in order to test us as to whether we believe the Bible or the world. (surely you have heard that there is opposition to God in the world)
Now this arrangement is a serious discouragement to the study of history, natural history or that human history which appears to have happened before the creation of the world.
Discouraging perhaps but your observations about the Bible still help others understand the Bible so I am not saying this to discourage you.
huckelberry wrote:Maklelan, Nipper is a young earth creationist. I am not sure if he has been blunt about it but he may be in agreement with the theory that the world looks old because God made it to look that way. I have seen fundamentalist leaders say that. I think it is the only possible rational view for young earth creationists. The implication is that God made up a world history which does not agree with the Bible in order to test us as to whether we believe the Bible or the world. (surely you have heard that there is opposition to God in the world)
Now this arrangement is a serious discouragement to the study of history, natural history or that human history which appears to have happened before the creation of the world.
Discouraging perhaps but your observations about the Bible still help others understand the Bible so I am not saying this to discourage you.
He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think maklelan places the contents of the Bible on the shelf marked "Folk Tales & Composite Folk Tales" that may or may not have had some grounding in real events but could equally be simple fireside myths and legends that have been passed down generationally.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)