As to the age of the universe, I see no logical reason to even imagine, that if God says He created in 6 literal days, that God could not possibly do that. It is not that God doesn't play by "natures" rules. It is simply that God created nature to reflect Himself and support life as He originally designed it. It is that man insists that things take a long time and that found chemical compounds reveal eons of time.
Found chemical compounds??
Nipper, people do not believe the earth old because they think God unable to do it faster. Is there a reason to say that other than to put the faith of other individuals down? People believe the world old because the evidence of the real world says its old. There is a record of many different events in the intertwining layers of rock which makes up the earth. It is a process of looking at all the different rock formations reading what they are and how they fit together which is the foundation of seeing the world as very old. That understanding was built out of study before there was any theory of evolution or worry about how long it took for organic compounds to happen. People believe the earth is old because large amounts of evidence all point to that as an inescapable fact of life.
I am saying this to try to point out that the problem is not that other people lack the faith that you have though you are suggesting that it is. It may appear to others here that you simply lack the faith to look at the evidence of the world God created. You might consider that faith may trust that God is truthful in what he does which can be seen in the evidence of the real world, the one God created. Faith might also lie in trusting that God can communicate with the Bible without insisting that the Bible fit preconceptions about inerrency. Faith should look at what the Bible actually is. I think Maklelan appears to do that and is putting actual faith into action in that study. I do not believe that makes Maklelan correct in all his views but I think it makes his effort to understand valuable.
What the Uniformitarian rejects is THE Worldwide FLOOD. And this one must do in order to redefine why scientists see what they see. With Jesus, this one point alone contradicts everything Jesus spoke concerning Noah. A believer simply cannot ignore this. Actual faith is a gift of God.
“For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.” (1 Cor 3:19)
“For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.” (2 Cor 1:12)
“But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.” (2 Cor 11:6)
Last edited by Guest on Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bazooka wrote:But you stopped short of correcting me....
I figured it would be clear enough in my post that your characterization of me was wrong. I guess I need to be more explicit from now on.
Bazooka wrote:In what ways is my description of the belief you hold in the stories of the Bible different to the belief you hold in the stories of the Bible?
In all the ways. I'm not playing stupid games with you.
And yet, despite the bluster, more explicit you steadfastedly refuse to be...
Let's take the Biblical flood of Noah. Do you believe the tale of Noah as explained in the Bible is a literal event, in that at the time of Noah the earth completely flooded, drowning everyone and everything except what was on the Ark? Or do you believe it's a figurative tale which may be an amalgamation of traditions handed down over generations?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
2 Chronicles 25:1-28 Amaziah was 25 years old when he became king and reigned 29 years in Jerusalem. His mother was Jehoaddin from Jerusalem. He lived well before God, but wasn’t wholeheartedly devoted to Him. When he assumed power, he executed the palace guard who had assassinated his father the king. But he didn’t kill the sons of the assassins—he was mindful of what God commanded in the Law of Moses, that parents shouldn’t be executed for their childrens’ sins, nor children for their parents’. Everyone pays for personally sins.
Amaziah organized Judah and sorted out Judah and Benjamin by families and by military units. Men 20 years and older had to register—they ended up with 300,000 judged capable of military service. In addition he hired 100,000 soldiers from Israel in the north at a cost of about four and a half tons of silver.
A holy man showed up advising the king not to let northern Israelite soldiers into the army; God is not on their side, nor with any of the Ephraimites. God and God only has the power to help or hurt a cause.
Amaziah said to the holy man, “But what about all this money—these tons of silver I have already paid out to hire these men?” “God’s help is worth far more to you than that,” said the holy man. Amaziah fired the soldiers he had hired from the north and sent them home. They were very angry at losing their jobs. Amaziah was optimistic. He led his troops into the Valley of Salt and killed 10,000 men of Seir. They took another 10,000 as prisoners, led them to the top of the Rock, and pushed them off a cliff.
But the troops Amaziah had dismissed from his army were angry over their lost opportunity for plunder and rampaged through the towns of Judah all the way from Samaria to Beth Horon, killing 3000 people and plundering.
On his return from the destruction of the Edomites, Amaziah brought back the gods of the men of Seir and made them his own gods, worshiping them and burning incense brfore them. That ignited God’s anger; a fiery blast of God’s wrath put into words by a God-sent prophet: “What is this? Why on earth would you pray to inferior gods who couldn’t save their own people from you—gods weaker than Amaziah?”
Amaziah interrupted him, “Did I ask for your opinion? Silence or get thrown out!” The prophet quit speaking, but not before he got in one last word: “God has made up his mind to throw you out because of what you’ve done, and wouldn’t listen.”
One day Amaziah sent messengers to Jehoash son of Jehoahaz, the son of Jehu, king of Israel, challenging him to a battle: “Come and meet with me, I dare you. Let’s have it out face-to-face!”
Jehoash king of Israel replied to Amaziah king of Judah, “One day a thistle in Lebanon sent word to a cedar in Lebanon, ‘Give your daughter to my son in marriage.’ But then a wild animal of Lebanon passed by and stepped on the thistle, crushing it. Just because you’ve defeated Edom in battle, you now think you’re a big shot. Go ahead and be proud, but stay home. Why press your luck? Why bring defeat on yourself and Judah?”
Amaziah wouldn’t take no for an answer—God had already decided to let Jehoash defeat him because he had turned to the gods of Edom. So Jehoash king of Israel came on ahead and confronted Amaziah king of Judah. They met at Beth Shemesh, a town of Judah. Judah was thoroughly beaten by Israel—all the soldiers straggled home in defeat.
Jehoash king of Israel captured Amaziah king of Judah, the son of Joash, the son of Ahaziah, at Beth Shemesh. But Jehoash didn’t stop there; he went to attack Jerusalem. He demolished the Wall of Jerusalem all the way from the Ephraim Gate to the Corner Gate—a stretch of some 600 feet. He looted the gold, silver, and furnishings—anything he found that was worth taking—from both the palace and The Temple of God—and, he took hostages --- then returned to Samaria.
Amaziah son of Joash king of Judah continued as king 15 years after the death of Jehoash son of Jehoahaz king of Israel. The rest of the life and times of Amaziah from start to finish were recorded in the lost Royal Annals of the Kings of Judah and Israel.
During those last days, after Amaziah had defected from God, they cooked up a plot against Amaziah in Jerusalem, and he had to flee to Lachish. But they tracked him down in Lachish and killed him there. They carried him on horseback and buried him in Jerusalem with his ancestors in the City of David.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 A son of twenty and five years hath Amaziah reigned, and twenty and nine years he hath reigned in Jerusalem, and the name of his mother [is] Jehoaddan of Jerusalem,
2 and he doth that which is right in the eyes of Jehovah -- only, not with a perfect heart.
3 And it cometh to pass, when the kingdom hath been strong upon him, that he slayeth his servants, those smiting the king his father,
4 and their sons he hath not put to death, but [did] as is written in the law, in the book of Moses, whom Jehovah commanded, saying, `Fathers do not die for sons, and sons die not for fathers, but each for his own sin they die.'
5 And Amaziah gathereth Judah, and appointeth them, according to the house of the fathers, for heads of the thousands, and for heads of the hundreds, for all Judah and Benjamin; and he inspecteth them from a son of twenty years and upward, and findeth them three hundred thousand chosen ones, going forth to the host, holding spear and target.
6 And he hireth out of Israel a hundred thousand mighty ones of valour, with a hundred talents of silver;
7 and a man of God hath come in unto him, saying, `O king, the host of Israel doth not go with thee; for Jehovah is not with Israel -- all the sons of Ephraim;
8 but if thou art going -- do [it], be strong for battle, God doth cause thee to stumble before an enemy, for there is power in God to help, and to cause to stumble.'
9 And Amaziah saith to the man of God, `And what -- to do for the hundred talents that I have given to the troop of Israel?' And the man of God saith, `Jehovah hath more to give to thee than this.'
10 And Amaziah separateth them -- for the troop that hath come in unto him from Ephraim to go to their own place, and their anger doth burn mightily against Judah, and they turn back to their place in the heat of anger.
11 And Amaziah hath strengthened himself, and leadeth his people, and goeth to the Valley of Salt, and smiteth the sons of Seir -- ten thousand.
12 And ten thousand alive have the sons of Judah taken captive, and they bring them to the top of the rock, and cast them from the top of the rock, and all of them have been broken.
13 And the sons of the troop that Amaziah hath sent back from going with him to battle -- they rush against cities of Judah, from Samaria even unto Beth-Horon, and smite of them three thousand, and seize much prey.
14 And it cometh to pass, after the coming in of Amaziah from smiting the Edomites, that he bringeth in the gods of the sons of Seir, and establisheth them to him for gods, and before them doth bow himself, and to them he maketh perfume.
15 And the anger of Jehovah burneth against Amaziah, and He sendeth unto him a prophet, and he saith unto him, `Why hast thou sought the gods of the people that have not delivered their people out of thy hand?'
16 And it cometh to pass, in his speaking unto him, that he saith to him, `For a counsellor to the king have we appointed thee? cease for thee; why do they smite thee?' And the prophet ceaseth, and saith, `I have known that God hath counselled to destroy thee, because thou hast done this, and hast not hearkened to my counsel.'
17 And Amaziah king of Judah taketh counsel, and sendeth unto Joash son of Jehoahaz, son of Jehu, king of Israel, saying,
18 `Come, we look one another in the face.' And Joash king of Israel sendeth unto Amaziah king of Judah, saying, `The thorn that [is] in Lebanon hath sent unto the cedar that [is] in Lebanon, saying, Give thy daughter to my son for a wife; and pass by doth a beast of the field that [is] in Lebanon, and treadeth down the thorn.
19 Thou hast said, Lo, I have smitten Edom; and thy heart hath lifted thee up to boast; now, abide in thy house, why dost thou stir thyself up in evil, that thou hast fallen, thou, and Judah with thee?'
20 And Amaziah hath not hearkened, for from God it [is] in order to give them into hand, because they have sought the gods of Edom;
21 and go up doth Joash king of Israel, and they look one another in the face, he and Amaziah king of Judah, in Beth-Shemesh, that [is] Judah's,
22 and Judah is smitten before Israel, and they flee -- each to his tents.
23 And Amaziah king of Judah, son of Joash, son of Jehoahaz, hath Joash king of Israel caught in Beth-Shemesh, and bringeth him in to Jerusalem, and breaketh down in the wall of Jerusalem from the gate of Ephraim unto the gate of the corner, four hundred cubits,
24 and [taketh] all the gold, and the silver, and all the vessels that are found in the house of God with Obed-Edom, and the treasures of the house of the king, and the sons of the pledges, and turneth back to Samaria.
25 And Amaziah son of Joash, king of Judah, liveth after the death of Joash son of Jehoahaz, king of Israel, fifteen years;
26 and the rest of the matters of Amaziah, the first and the last, lo, are they not written on the books of the kings of Judah and Israel?
27 And from the time that Amaziah hath turned aside from after Jehovah -- they make a conspiracy against him in Jerusalem, and he fleeth to Lachish, and they send after him to Lachish, and put him to death there,
28 and lift him up on the horses, and bury him with his fathers in the city of Judah.
LittleNipper wrote: What the Uniformitarian rejects is THE Worldwide FLOOD. And this one must do in order to redefine why scientists see what they see.
Nipper, You are saying that the world is clearly the result of a great world wide flood but scientists cannot think that because God made the flood. Have you considered that if a flood was the cause scientist would be speculating about the natural causes for the flood that everybody sees?. But they are not inventing such natural floods because people just do not see how a flood caused the arrangement of rocks in the physical world.
When I go exploring in the mountains I see all sorts of things that do not come from a flood.
Yes God creates faith but surly you have noticed that not all people of faith think the same things?
LittleNipper wrote: What the Uniformitarian rejects is THE Worldwide FLOOD. And this one must do in order to redefine why scientists see what they see.
Nipper, You are saying that the world is clearly the result of a great world wide flood but scientists cannot think that because God made the flood. Have you considered that if a flood was the cause scientist would be speculating about the natural causes for the flood that everybody sees?. But they are not inventing such natural floods because people just do not see how a flood caused the arrangement of rocks in the physical world.
When I go exploring in the mountains I see all sorts of things that do not come from a flood.
Yes God creates faith but surely you have noticed that not all people of faith think the same things?
I know that Christ foresaw a time when Christians would get issues confused... The issue that really counts is that Jesus is the Christ and that individuals must depend on Jesus for their salvation. To do this they must see that they are sinful (they have lied, cheated, stolen, coveted, abused sex and miss the mark). They must also feel that they can trust God. And it is obvious to me that this is NEVER what Satan wants...
Major problems come when man imagines that long periods of time are required for everything to get to the stage they are presently. The biblical indications are that the Flood was more than just water. I feel that there were asteroid strikes, crust buckling, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, etc... I also feel that such continued long after the Flood subsided, to this very day in one degree or another. Today, there seems to be more and more evidence discovered that indicate water immersion, but want uniformitarians try to show is that such happened repeatedly over eons and not in the span of a year. Many feel obligated to support long held theories and are not willing to fight their peers for fear of being ostracized professionally. This is nothing new --- the Bible is full of such insights into human nature.
Bazooka wrote:And yet, despite the bluster, more explicit you steadfastedly refuse to be...
I'm perfectly explicit when someone is not trying to rhetorically manipulate me.
Bazooka wrote:Let's take the Biblical flood of Noah. Do you believe the tale of Noah as explained in the Bible is a literal event, in that at the time of Noah the earth completely flooded, drowning everyone and everything except what was on the Ark?
No, I don't believe that.
Bazooka wrote:Or do you believe it's a figurative tale which may be an amalgamation of traditions handed down over generations?
I don't believe that either. There are more options, you just have to know something about how this kind of literature works to know what they are. You do not know anything about how it works, and you don't care to take the time to learn. You only want to find what is rhetorically useful for you.
Bazooka wrote:Let's take the Biblical flood of Noah. Do you believe the tale of Noah as explained in the Bible is a literal event, in that at the time of Noah the earth completely flooded, drowning everyone and everything except what was on the Ark?
No, I don't believe that.
And there^ we have it.
Not everyone throughout the modern world, however, accepts the story of Noah and the Flood. Many totally disbelieve the story, seeing it as a simple myth or fiction. Typical of some modern scholars, one author recently discounted the events of the Flood by using such terms as “implausible,” “unacceptable,” and “impossible”; he stated that believers who would hope to provide geologic or other evidence regarding the historicity of the Flood “can be given no assurance that their effort, however sustained, will be successful.” 1 Another author titled his book The Noah’s Ark Nonsense, 2 revealing his disbelief that the Flood actually took place.
Still other people accept parts of the Flood story, acknowledging that there may have been a local, charismatic preacher, such as Noah, and a localized flood that covered only a specific area of the world, such as the region of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers or perhaps even the whole of Mesopotamia. Yet these people do not believe in a worldwide or global flood. Both of these groups—those who totally deny the historicity of Noah and the Flood and those who accept parts of the story—are persuaded in their disbelief by the way they interpret modern science. They rely upon geological considerations and theories that postulate it would be impossible for a flood to cover earth’s highest mountains, that the geologic evidence (primarily in the fields of stratigraphy and sedimentation) does not indicate a worldwide flood occurred any time during the earth’s existence.
There is a third group of people—those who accept the literal message of the Bible regarding Noah, the ark, and the Deluge. Latter-day Saints belong to this group. In spite of the world’s arguments against the historicity of the Flood, and despite the supposed lack of geologic evidence, we Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God’s prophets.
Where is safety, brothers and sisters? Where but in the Church and under the protective canopy of the gospel of Jesus Christ? Is not today much like Noah’s day when the population of the earth was wiped out in the flood and but eight righteous souls were spared?
Some doubt that there was a flood, but by modern revelation we know that it did take place. By modern revelation we know that for more than a century, Noah pleaded with the people to repent, but in their willful stubbornness they would not listen.
Holy scripture records that “after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof.” (Ether 13:2.) Such a special place needed now to be kept apart from other regions, free from the indiscriminate traveler as well as the soldier of fortune. To guarantee such sanctity the very surface of the earth was rent. In response to God’s decree, the great continents separated and the ocean rushed in to surround them. The promised place was set apart. Without habitation it waited for the fulfillment of God’s special purposes. https://www.LDS.org/ensign/1976/06/a-promised-land
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That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
Major problems come when man imagines that long periods of time are required for everything to get to the stage they are presently.
Nipper, what are these major problems? All I see is a better view of the majesty power and love of God.
Does it make Jesus less divine? his atonement less effective or necessary? Does it make humans less trapped in sin and needing of Gods will and action to save and renew them? I cannot see how the age of the world changes any of those things.