subgenius wrote:because the "love" is not contradictory is the point.
Neither the love nor the belief are contradictory. therefore a false analogy.
subgenius wrote: So?
when various groups with differing beliefs that aren't compatible are receiving spiritual confirmations that their beliefs are true, then it is safe to conclude that some (and perhaps all) are incorrect.
subgenius wrote:On this topic, to what end does this matter? If I know "my feeling" to be "true" then exactly how is it validated or invalidated by someone else's feeling? And please do not distracted by bringing forth your own gibberish about test tube results...stay on this topic.
Feelings are by their nature subjective. Therefore you can't "know" your feeling to be true (if it is about anything external to yourself) unless you have tested it. A strong belief that is unshakable does not equate to truth.
subgenius wrote:and what message do you "feel" that this is ?
I'm not sure to be honest. The thread is supposed to be (I think) about the difficulty of reconciling how different people from different sects have supposed spiritual confirmations that their religion is god's only true path for us....If you're talking about a different kind of feeling then I'm afraid that is outside the scope of the discussion and irrelevant.
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence - Hitch
People are not saved by feelings. One day one may feel great, and the next totally terrible. So, it is a good thing that people are not saved on account of their feelings or they would never know one moment to the next that they were truly saved. God never changes; however, we do. And most importantly, God wants a relationship with us. God is not seeking to deal with a middleman. Therefore, it doesn't matter what organization one subscribes, but knowing that Christ has made a way so that sinful men might be saved by grace through faith. Perfect people do not need the Savior. So, if one group thinks it is perfect, then perhaps they know something God doesn't.
God not ever said that church x is my church. God did tell the people of israel that God loved them in a special way and they "belonged" to Him. Jesus said ,over 100 times (count'em) to "believe " in Him. He never said set up church x as the one true church.
So in the first instance, God established a covenant with a people-said coventant is still valid. Jesus establishes a personal coventant with each of those who believe in Him. A true personal covenant relationship comes only from a Holy Spirit infused "born again" experience. Authentic conversions come in different forms, dramatic or progressive, but all have common characteristics- comparing what happened and what resulted from the "born again" experience will yield such common characteristics as : a deep felt sense of repenting of sin or of sinfulness, a feeling of God's love inside onesself and forgiveness of sin so that one is brought to tears, a sense of God's presence 24/7 after the experience, a desire to read the Bible, a desire to love but especially serve others, a sense of humility in submission to God's will, a major sense that most things and activities in life without God are "junk and meaningless", an internal sense of peace and eternal security- these are some of the characteristics but not all.
My wife took me to go see this movie called "Heaven is for Real."
She, along with a few other Mormons surprised me in the way that they accepted it as completely true. It is about a kid who died and came back and then started telling friends and family that he had visitations from Jesus. The kid was like 5 or 6 I think and he spoke of going to heaven and seeing angels ... with wings! He then spoke of several visits from none other than Jesus himself, and they would have long conversations apparently.
So as they were discussing what a wonderful movie it was that proved God is real, I just said to them, "but you're Mormons. So how come Jesus never once told this kid that his true Church was the Mormon church"? They didn't have an answer.
Kevin Graham wrote:My wife took me to go see this movie called "Heaven is for Real."
She, along with a few other Mormons surprised me in the way that they accepted it as completely true. It is about a kid who died and came back and then started telling friends and family that he had visitations from Jesus. The kid was like 5 or 6 I think and he spoke of going to heaven and seeing angels ... with wings! He then spoke of several visits from none other than Jesus himself, and they would have long conversations apparently.
So as they were discussing what a wonderful movie it was that proved God is real, I just said to them, "but you're Mormons. So how come Jesus never once told this kid that his true Church was the Mormon church"? They didn't have an answer.
My wife watched this movie and I was surprised by how much she was irritated by it. She made the interesting point that the pastor, who is also the author of the story (I think), was having financial problems before this all happened. Now he seems to be doing well. Also, these NDE's (near death exp) always seem to follow someone's already established belief systems. It was also way too heavy on the preaching and the feels. Like they were trying way too hard. I just couldn't sit through that crap. Went upstairs and played Skyrim. I prefer fairy tales were I get to kill dragons.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Kevin Graham wrote:My wife took me to go see this movie called "Heaven is for Real."
She, along with a few other Mormons surprised me in the way that they accepted it as completely true. It is about a kid who died and came back and then started telling friends and family that he had visitations from Jesus. The kid was like 5 or 6 I think and he spoke of going to heaven and seeing angels ... with wings! He then spoke of several visits from none other than Jesus himself, and they would have long conversations apparently.
So as they were discussing what a wonderful movie it was that proved God is real, I just said to them, "but you're Mormons. So how come Jesus never once told this kid that his true Church was the Mormon church"? They didn't have an answer.
My wife watched this movie and I was surprised by how much she was irritated by it. She made the interesting point that the pastor, who is also the author of the story (I think), was having financial problems before this all happened. Now he seems to be doing well. Also, these NDE's (near death exp) always seem to follow someone's already established belief systems. It was also way too heavy on the preaching and the feels. Like they were trying way too hard. I just couldn't sit through that crap. Went upstairs and played Skyrim. I prefer fairy tales were I get to kill dragons.
Some people are upset by the feeling that they have to make a choice. They must either believe that there is a God or that there is not. It seems so easy to live one's life indifferent to such decisions when not confronted or exposed to such ideas. One can forget, ignore, or remain busy with all sorts of amusements and distractions. However, when one is presented with someone's experience, and that person appears rational, average, "normal" ----- an individual must at least wonder if somehow they are overlooking something, are ignorant of some facts, or that the person who is presenting the experience is just a very good actor.
LittleNipper wrote:Some people are upset by the feeling that they have to make a choice. They must either believe that there is a God or that there is not. It seems so easy to live one's life indifferent to such decisions when not confronted or exposed to such ideas. One can forget, ignore, or remain busy with all sorts of amusements and distractions. However, when one is presented with someone's experience, and that person appears rational, average, "normal" ----- an individual must at least wonder if somehow they are overlooking something, are ignorant of some facts, or that the person who is presenting the experience is just a very good actor.
Or...some people have wondered about that stuff their entire lives, have listened to others experiences and beliefs, accepted those beliefs, and have found out later on that they were not true. Now they don't even trust their own feelings about such things nor do they trust their own beliefs and values that they have been taught their entire life and have decided to relax, stop worrying about it so much, and wait for God to reveal whatever he wants if he is even there. Maybe, each moment is precious, and they should focus more on their relationships here on planet earth and stop spending so much time at Church and work, because tomorrow you may never see that person again. Maybe they should have more fun doing the things they enjoy. Maybe they will actually start enjoying their job more because they can focus better without being overly burdened about not being perfect enough. Maybe they will have better financial freedom because they aren't giving an exorbitant amount of their income to a corporate 'church' that brags about their new strip mall they just built and how many new temples they can dedicate in a year. Maybe they just don't care about other people's spiritual experiences because people are crazy sometimes and sometimes they even lie.
LittleNipper wrote:Some people are upset by the feeling that they have to make a choice. They must either believe that there is a God or that there is not. It seems so easy to live one's life indifferent to such decisions when not confronted or exposed to such ideas. One can forget, ignore, or remain busy with all sorts of amusements and distractions. However, when one is presented with someone's experience, and that person appears rational, average, "normal" ----- an individual must at least wonder if somehow they are overlooking something, are ignorant of some facts, or that the person who is presenting the experience is just a very good actor.
Or...some people have wondered about that stuff their entire lives, have listened to others experiences and beliefs, accepted those beliefs, and have found out later on that they were not true. Now they don't even trust their own feelings about such things nor do they trust their own beliefs and values that they have been taught their entire life and have decided to relax, stop worrying about it so much, and wait for God to reveal whatever he wants if he is even there. Maybe, each moment is precious, and they should focus more on their relationships here on planet earth and stop spending so much time at Church and work, because tomorrow you may never see that person again. Maybe they should have more fun doing the things they enjoy. Maybe they will actually start enjoying their job more because they can focus better without being overly burdened about not being perfect enough. Maybe they will have better financial freedom because they aren't giving an exorbitant amount of their income to a corporate 'church' that brags about their new strip mall they just built and how many new temples they can dedicate in a year. Maybe they just don't care about other people's spiritual experiences because people are crazy sometimes and sometimes they even lie.
Well, I'm not a Mormon. However, God does not charge anything for salvation. If He did, no one could afford the cost. The fact is that God has asked for 10% in the past. The government takes how much?