torture

[_subgenius]

...(snip)...we will never know whether the people who hear "yes" were hearing God or themselves.
any more than we can know if people who heard "no" were hearing God or themselves.

why do we need to know this for ourselves?
perhaps you should inquire as to the suggested methods of conflict resolution as opposed to being concerned with an individual's personal revelations?

innocent people are being tortured to death, as a DIRECT RESULT of the war that God (via Monson) wholeheartedly supports, from a torture handbook written by good church members.

no comprendo

in my view of things, I don't understand how or why church members DON'T sincerely wish to know if God condones torture resulting in death.

what makes you believe that church members do not already know?

take 100 church members who pray asking God if he condones torture, let's say 50 members heard God say YES and 50 members heard God say NO

absurd hypothetical. you can write this story with the characters and conflict you desire...to what end? an ending that you pre-assemble?....a futile and worthless exercise with regards to this topic.

so then people from each side start meeting together for the purposes of reinforcing confirmation bias.

the only concrete evidence we have is Jessen and Bybee who were paid 80 million out of a 160 million dollar contract to write THEE torture handbook...

with some of this money (10%) ending up in church coffers

if God does not condone torture He shouldn't be accepting money MADE FROM TORTURE.

and then God calls Jessen to be Bishop. so now we have

1. accepting money from the profits of torture
2. promoting the person responsible for defining and conducting torture

a very ambiguous position good people should only naturally wish clarification on.

no comprendo mi amigo.
what part of Nephi's midnight rendezvous with Laban do you not understand?

[_malkie]

...
absurd hypothetical. you can write this story with the characters and conflict you desire...to what end? an ending that you pre-assemble?....a futile and worthless exercise with regards to this topic.

OK then - for the sake of argument, let's temporarily abandon hypotheticals - let's be direct.

1. Do you, subgenius, condone torture?

2. Do you, subgenius, believe that your god condones torture?

3. Do you, subgenius, believe that other good members of your faith may disagree with you on whether your god condones torture?

[_AKA_ME]

on one hand you have God accepting millions of dollars in tithing money from church members who wrote the CIA handbook containing actions the CIA found too reprehensible to permit

plus performed an unknown number of days (or years?) CONDUCTING torture at $10K a day tax free

on the other you have innocent people being tortured to the point of death which can't possible be morally acceptable.

it is painfully clear church members are morally bankrupt in being unable express any opinion here...

because the head of the organization is also morally bankrupt in being unable to express any opinion.

[_subgenius]

...
absurd hypothetical. you can write this story with the characters and conflict you desire...to what end? an ending that you pre-assemble?....a futile and worthless exercise with regards to this topic.

OK then - for the sake of argument, let's temporarily abandon hypotheticals - let's be direct.

1. Do you, subgenius, condone torture?

2. Do you, subgenius, believe that your god condones torture?

3. Do you, subgenius, believe that other good members of your faith may disagree with you on whether your god condones torture?

Without splitting hairs over "torture"...
1. Yes, as does everyone.. it is as intrinsic to human life as breathing.
2. Yes, that is obvious.
3. No, it is not possible.

[_subgenius]

.... innocent people being tortured...

This is a great example of moving the goal posts. The OP was about torture... but now it is about the inherent unjust juxtaposition of torture and innocence.
What a load.

[_AKA_ME]

.... innocent people being tortured...

This is a great example of moving the goal posts. The OP was about torture... but now it is about the inherent unjust juxtaposition of torture and innocence.
What a load.

the OP was asking church members to do what they're asking non-church members to do (pray on a question).
we've already concluded there is a "do as I say not as I do" attitude because they won't even try.

we're still talking about TORTURE, just how church members are morally bankrupt when it comes to:
expressing their own opinion whether they think TORTURE is right or wrong
whether they think God Condones TORTURE

and should God not condone TORTURE... how bloody hypocritical is it of Him to receive millions of tithing dollars from TORTURE

God's moral bankruptcy is "shut thy mouth and keep the tithing coming".

[_Zadok]

God's moral bankruptcy is "shut thy mouth and keep the tithing coming".

I hope that the Church and God are not the same. In my mind, because I'm clutching at straws to keep some faith in a supreme being, I want to say that GOD isn't involved in the torture, doesn't condone it and weeps when humans are inhuman to each other.

The Church on the other hand, has no connection to God, and is nothing more than a money grubbing sham promising next life blessings for this life payments. A total fraud and racket if there ever was one. If there is money to be made by torturing then they are all for it. As long as the architect of the Government's torture program paid them 10% of his gross income, they couldn't care less what he did to earn it.

[_subgenius]

the OP was asking church members to do what they're asking non-church members to do (pray on a question).
we've already concluded there is a "do as I say not as I do" attitude because they won't even try.

OP stated - "pray to God asking Him if condones torture?"
subsequent post stated - "innocent people being tortured "

the insertion of "innocent" is an effort to inflate some sort of ambiguous moral position you seem to be proposing....but not yet revealed. I mean, is torture of the guilty a reasonable act but of the innocent it is not? why?...are you stating that being "not innocent" merits punishment?...if so, then does not the judgment of who is guilty or innocent lay upon God?...if not so, then neither guilty nor innocent deserve "torture" and your insertion of "innocent" here is merely a ruse, a con, a parlor trick hoping to gain sympathy for your otherwise shallow point.....or perhaps one could take the position that torture of the innocent or the guilty is justified because this guilt or innocence is merely relative - therefore Justice Is Might.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4YQotVe2zk

furthermore -
your extrapolations are sophomoric....the blanket "pray on a question" charge is unfounded...church members do not as non members to simply pray on any and every question, so for you to ask the same is equally as absurd.

we're still talking about TORTURE, just how church members are morally bankrupt when it comes to:
expressing their own opinion whether they think TORTURE is right or wrong
whether they think God Condones TORTURE

again - you ignore the previously mentioned Nephi and Laban rendezvous

and should God not condone TORTURE... how bloody hypocritical is it of Him to receive millions of tithing dollars from TORTURE

perhaps you are correct if "should God not"...but there is no reason to believe He does not and you surely have provided no evidence to conclude that He does not. Whereas I have already provided at least one example where God does, in fact, condone torture....ergo, no hypocrisy - just you getting upset about a fantasy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture

God's moral bankruptcy is "shut thy mouth and keep the tithing coming".

explain the morality here, and please include the principles your outrage is founded upon.
for example
what exactly is "wrong" with shutting your mouth and keeping the tithing coming? what particular "rule" has been transgressed? (under the assumption that what you propose is true, since thus far no reasoning nor evidence has been provided to validate your claim).

[_AKA_ME]

what exactly is "wrong" with shutting your mouth and keeping the tithing coming? what particular "rule" has been transgressed? (under the assumption that what you propose is true, since thus far no reasoning nor evidence has been provided to validate your claim).

I'm going to need some time to read up on http://www.mormonchronicle.com/nephis-h ... -of-laban/ to fully understand what's being implied here.
my first reaction is why dudn't God pull a Sodom and Gomorrah and DO IT HIMSELF!

*IF*... making money on morally objectionable issues is fine by the church

*THEN*... we should see church members opening marijuana dispensaries in my home state of washington because doing so is perfectly legal. we should see church members opening brothels in nevada because doing so is perfectly legal.

*THEREFORE* one could conclude the church does not condone making money on morally objectionable issues (Marriott sales of alcohol aside).

in light of the church not condoning profit from morally objectionable issues...

it would appear that TORTURE is morally acceptable to both God and His corporation because they are accepting millions of dollars in TORTURE revenue.

else they are morally bankrupt to turn a blind eye in accepting morally objectionable money SHUTTING THEIR OWN mouth to not declare TORTURE right or wrong and letting the benjamins roll in.

[_Zadok]

*IF*... making money on morally objectionable issues is fine by the church

*THEN*... we should see church members opening marijuana dispensaries in my home state of Washington because doing so is perfectly legal. we should see church members opening brothels in Nevada because doing so is perfectly legal.

I agree, It is my position that the Institutional Church would not take a position on these 'legal' activities by its members.

*THEREFORE* one could conclude the church does not condone making money on morally objectionable issues (Marriott sales of alcohol aside).

Marriott DOES sell alcohol in every hotel where permitted by law, Marriott did provide pornography on their entertainment system until it no longer was profitable to do so. (At no time did the Church object as far as I know).

Further the Church its self willingly sold alcohol at a rather nice bar located in the Hotel Utah. (I believe the actual wood bar is still in use at a watering hole in Salt Lake City).

it would appear that TORTURE is morally acceptable to both God and His corporation because they are accepting millions of dollars in TORTURE revenue.

As stated, I do not believe the Church is 'HIS', and I do not accept that the LDS Church, or any other for that matter speaks for God. What is acceptable to the Church is dependent upon the decisions of the leadership, and I believe that as long as there is no embarrassing moral outrage, they are fine with ANY activity that provides income directly, or through the tithing of members so engaged.

As to the moral bankruptcy of the Church, I believe the essays have proven that fact beyond a reasonable doubt.