Obedience vs. Love as an LDS turning point

[_subgenius]

Romans 14:1

Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don’t see things the way you do. And don’t jump all over them every time they do or say something you don’t agree with—even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department. Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently.

So given the context, a murderer is a fellow believer?
Oh, ok

[_moksha]

So given the context, a murderer is a fellow believer?
Oh, ok

I know there is the LDS thought that God will not forgive murder and I do not wish to dispute that, but it sounds like something someone would claim during a good session of pontificating. The person would remain a child of God and it is hard to understand the complete abandonment of a child.

To me, Jesus paints a portrait of hope and not condemnation. The waters of life are freely given if we ask.

[_Amore]

Moksha,
I see it similarly.
Of course for society's protection, murder is sometimes considered an unforgivable crime and those who commit it are cast out. And maybe spiritually, the same angry/horrific spirit may also be secluded in some ways (different conscious/energetic resonance levels).

Still, I can't imagine God, who is love, to be a respector of persons.
I thing God never ceases to love and care for all, no matter what.

And as we define God, we define our ideals, and consider and treat ourselves and others accordingly. Forgive all - and I see forgiving as "giving" to go "for"ward - not being damned up by festering anger.

[_subgenius]

So given the context, a murderer is a fellow believer?
Oh, ok

I know there is the LDS thought that God will not forgive murder and I do not wish to dispute that, but it sounds like something someone would claim during a good session of pontificating. The person would remain a child of God and it is hard to understand the complete abandonment of a child.

To me, Jesus paints a portrait of hope and not condemnation. The waters of life are freely given if we ask.

Yes, Jesus certainly paints such a picture, but to think that his palette is monochromatic is naïve. Which is clearly seen by the previously mentioned scripture:

Matthew 7-23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
https://www.LDS.org/scriptures/New Testament/matt/7.22?lang=eng

This may seem like unimaginable abandonment, but the truth is that both God and Jesus have little tolerance for that which you would condone. Forgiveness is certainly not a one way street with either of them, why is it that way with you?

[Jersey Girl]

This may seem like unimaginable abandonment, but the truth is that both God and Jesus have little tolerance for that which you would condone. Forgiveness is certainly not a one way street with either of them, why is it that way with you?

Our task to love one another should not bound by man's desire for obedience based on limited love and forgiveness.

[_Amore]

Subgenius,
It's understandable to view God and Jesus as so conditional, it's common but in my opinion, unhealthy.
I'm not suggesting God would routinely prevent us from experiencing the consequences of our mistakes/sins, but I also don't believe God would kick us when we're down.

[_subgenius]

Subgenius,
It's understandable to view God and Jesus as so conditional, it's common but in my opinion, unhealthy.
I'm not suggesting God would routinely prevent us from experiencing the consequences of our mistakes/sins, but I also don't believe God would kick us when we're down.

How can this be unhealthy? The scriptures counsel us quite often to be righteous in deed and in judgment.
It is not just "understandable" it is necessary in order to have a "healthy" view of what God commands and what Jesus taught.
As for kicking us when we are down, perhaps Job could respond to that better than I can. God never puts trials upon the unrighteous and He never negotiates. Jesus loved everyone, but not without condition - as the scriptures affirm over and over. Jesus even takes His place as one who "judges"...this is certainly not a free pass.
Again a monochromatic picture of Christ is inaccurate and misleading.

"Unconditional" thinking is rather self-involved and leads to the justification for any sort of behavior, it renders the teachings of Jesus Christ and the commands of God as being some ambiguous collection of subjective guidelines.

[Guest]

The terms "obey" & "obedience" may have a negative connotation - as if one must submit to whatever is asked - even eat dirt.
But if it is considered in terms of, (ie) a wise and knowledgeable doctor, it would be empowering to obey sound medical advise.
This is why I can see truth in the phrase, "obedience is the first law of heaven."
The challenge is reasonabley and intuitively interpreting cues to obey.

[_Amore]

Subgenius,
The account of Job does seem to suggest that God might kick us when we're down, however, I think that can be compared to trials we get when we were not "knocked down" from consequences of sin. Still, all of the more reason to forgive God or whatever or whoever one might attribute to the cause of suffering. We need a higher power to get us on our feet again.

It's healthy to invest faith in the possibility that "God is love" - unconditional love, because where else would we find it? This life commands us to face trials - no free pass. Even our imperfect parents are conditional in their love. Faith in God - as in objective truth and pure love - is the deepest yearning of the soul. It is the only source of genuine hope when we've been beaten down.

I agree that God is definetely not monochromatic because God is everything - energy that motivates, which is as unique as the countless life forms. God is love, charity is the pure love of Christ - unconditional love, though expressed infinite different ways.
Love is dynamic and strives for what is GOoD - doesn't justify harmful behavior. Love strives for what's best in the big picture. What's best involves "opposition in all things."

Love, like how one resonates spiritually, is subjectively experienced and depends on what is best in each unique circumstance and is based on truth. If it had conditions, it might be weak and cave to pleasing someone when "tough love" is most needed.
Jesus whipped peopke out of the temple and called religious leaders out on their evils, yet when the occassion called for it, he healed, blessed, fasted and cried. I imagine Jesus' examples are expressions of unconditional love - not peace at all costs, but love at all costs.

[_subgenius]

Subgenius,
The account of Job does seem to suggest that God might kick us when we're down, however, I think that can be compared to trials we get when we were not "knocked down" from consequences of sin. Still, all of the more reason to forgive God or whatever or whoever one might attribute to the cause of suffering. We need a higher power to get us on our feet again.

It's healthy to invest faith in the possibility that "God is love" - unconditional love, because where else would we find it? This life commands us to face trials - no free pass. Even our imperfect parents are conditional in their love. Faith in God - as in objective truth and pure love - is the deepest yearning of the soul. It is the only source of genuine hope when we've been beaten down.

I agree that God is definetely not monochromatic because God is everything - energy that motivates, which is as unique as the countless life forms. God is love, charity is the pure love of Christ - unconditional love, though expressed infinite different ways.
Love is dynamic and strives for what is GOoD - doesn't justify harmful behavior. Love strives for what's best in the big picture. What's best involves "opposition in all things."

Love, like how one resonates spiritually, is subjectively experienced and depends on what is best in each unique circumstance and is based on truth. If it had conditions, it might be weak and cave to pleasing someone when "tough love" is most needed.
Jesus whipped peopke out of the temple and called religious leaders out on their evils, yet when the occassion called for it, he healed, blessed, fasted and cried. I imagine Jesus' examples are expressions of unconditional love - not peace at all costs, but love at all costs.

I appreciate your thoughts here bit consider them more applicable to the poster's objection to the idea that God does not have a value for suffering or that God does not pass judgment.
Nevertheless, consider this:

"I find God in the suffering eyes reflected in mine. If this is how you are revealed to me, this is how I will forever seek you.
"I will always seek God. Some people find God in church. Some people find God in nature. Some people find God in love; I find God in suffering. I've known for some time what my life's work is, using my hands as tools to relieve suffering."
Kayla Mueller
http://ncronline.org/blogs/grace-margin ... 4.Facebook