jo1952 wrote:I used to think that the following meant that there was just an urgency in the importance of listening to what Jesus spoke; which thus required that you should immediately drop everything you are doing and "follow him".
However, in view of 1Nephi 6:1-5, I am now thinking that in order to actually follow Him, you must stop worrying about the dead. To actually say "let the dead bury their dead"...which is physically impossible to do...(how can someone who is also dead bury others who are dead?)...now seems to imply that those who are concerned with the dead CANNOT actually also follow Jesus as they are ALSO dead in some way (spiritually?). In other words, they are concerned with something worldly; but not of God. So, in order to actually follow Jesus, you have to be able to also give up your concern about the dead. If you don't, you can't actually follow Him. Perhaps, another way to say it is that if you want to understand and receive the messages Jesus teaches, you won't be able to do so while being concerned about the dead.
That all comes off as very judgmental. I mean, let's be fair, Jesus is dead and you seem awfully concerned about him. By your own advice we should stop worrying about him.
I'm sure you have a whole list of approved activities that indicate someone is properly following a godly life and a whole list of activities that prove someone isn't living a godly life. Guess what? The activities on both lists are earthly concerns. They are all about humans and pleasure and feeling good.
I agree that people should not worry about deceased people. I don't think worry about any topic does much good and can lead to unhappiness. But it is perfectly normal and natural that people will mourn the dead, hold rituals in their honor, research and study them. That is a very human thing and not at all bad or wrong. No matter what some book says about it.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
I think that the things we like to do in the flesh distract us from being able to figure out the truth of who we are, why we are here, and what is really going on. The natural man is an enemy to God....although there is a wise purpose for why we DO go through mortality and become enemies to God. Mortality is where the carnal man/natural man/satan have dominion in this physical world. The desires we have here prevent us from being able to see and hear the truth inside of what Jesus and other Prophets try to teach us. However, Jesus and other Prophets DO give us direction on how we can "give up the world" in order to find out the real truth.
Only by following that formula can we then find it; though I don't think it is necessary that we find the real truth. However, the prescription for finding it has been taught to us. It is left up to us to choose to do something with it, or not. No harm, no foul.
What was taught by Jesus? Become like little children (little children haven't been indoctrinated with the traditions of their fathers); which entails giving up the world (In other words, give up the things we have been taught as beliefs and traditions of our religions, our socialities, and other things which are part of the arm of flesh/mortality). He said seek and ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you. I don't think He was talking about finding religion or religious canon and then begin believing what is taught therein. That is way too easy to do....religion and religious canon is everywhere....what kind of seeking does it take to find that sort of thing? And if that is what you do think it is, then what are you left with?....you are left with worldly stuff; with laws and beliefs you must follow. Even things like relationships which religion wants you to seal with a marriage contract...even though Jesus taught to only say yea or nay, we insist on "I solemnly swear".
Matthew 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
What did other Prophets teach? To have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Only by doing these things, as taught by Jesus and other Prophets, can we fulfill the requirement for being able to see and hear. These things are outside of religion, and have nothing to do with the ways of the world.
While we are involved with doing things the world's "way" (even though we DO find--at the very least--limited amounts of happiness therein), we will not be able to find out what is really going on here. What is really going on here has to do with the real "God" and the real purpose of why we are here; but the natural/carnal/worldly ("god" of this world) is an enemy to the REAL "God" (the divine in us). So, Jesus teaches us how to escape the god of this world in order for us to find the real God. We can't follow and see and hear (understand) what He said until after we give up what the world thinks is important (like genealogy or other things pertaining to the dead).
Meanwhile, Jesus taught a formula for how we can find peace while we ARE living on the earth. Even though we aren't able to actually live it, nor have we even been able to figure out a government that will afford it to us, He gave us the formula/"way" nonetheless. When He returns, He will enforce it, in order that we can finally experience mortality without interfering with each other's free will. The world's way (carnal/natural/satan) is to remove our ability to exercise free will. The "war in heaven" was over who would be able to lead us back to "God". Satan's way is the world's way...and look at all of the laws that religion creates and then teaches us we MUST obey in order to return to God. It cannot lead us back/help us find "God". Jesus' way, OTOH, was taught in wonderful detail through the Sermon on the Mount...it's basic premise, "do unto others as you would have others do unto you". It's a simple message; but it's about impossible to actually live it because we keep getting in each other's way. Why? Because we have set up societies, relationships, nations, divisions among people, and all types of circumstances which end up NOT treating each other equally. This, even though God is not a respecter of persons, and ALL are alike unto God.
Disclaimer: terminology is chosen based upon already established belief systems. For instance, I use words such as "God", god, divine, etc., but no longer believe them in the same manner as taught by religion. I merely use those words because that is what "religion" has created in order to try to answer the world's age old questions of who we are, why we are here, and what we think is going on here.
Quasimodo wrote:Genealogy is a fun pursuit. I've always had an interest in history and one's own family history is especially interesting. How could that be an evil?
Evil? that's a hard one to support. I would call it an earthly distraction. I think you would have to mix in the intent to avoid following God for that to be evil. Maybe an example is in order. Let us say I am talking to my neighbor about fishing. I think we can say there is no evil in doing that. But what if in talking to my neighbor I distract him from seeing his cows escaping through a hole in his fence. Is it now evil to talk about fishing? We may conclude that it is evil if I knew about the cows and my intent was to distract my neighbor.
Now we must ask what is the intent of the church in the work for the dead? Is the work pleasing to God? Or is it a law, a temporal law similiar to the laws handed down by Moses. The Jews in following the law thought of themselves as special. So in doing work for the dead someone could feel they are pleasing theirself. Another person could feel they are pleasing God and thus raising their chances of obtaining a higher place in heaven.
I think once we have an intent to do something that Christ would not do then we have gone past an earthly past time and entered into evil territory. So if in our heart we feel we are just enjoying an earthly pleasure I can't see a problem. My comment to Just Me was in that light. But since you asked about evil I decided to describe how I see work for the dead. If I did work for the dead I would feel that I am doing something that Christ would not do. So I would feel I am drifting away from the teachings of Jesus.
jo1952 wrote:I used to think that the following meant that there was just an urgency in the importance of listening to what Jesus spoke; which thus required that you should immediately drop everything you are doing and "follow him".
However, in view of 1Nephi 6:1-5, I am now thinking that in order to actually follow Him, you must stop worrying about the dead. To actually say "let the dead bury their dead"...which is physically impossible to do...(how can someone who is also dead bury others who are dead?)...now seems to imply that those who are concerned with the dead CANNOT actually also follow Jesus as they are ALSO dead in some way (spiritually?). In other words, they are concerned with something worldly; but not of God. So, in order to actually follow Jesus, you have to be able to also give up your concern about the dead. If you don't, you can't actually follow Him. Perhaps, another way to say it is that if you want to understand and receive the messages Jesus teaches, you won't be able to do so while being concerned about the dead.
That all comes off as very judgmental. I mean, let's be fair, Jesus is dead and you seem awfully concerned about him. By your own advice we should stop worrying about him.
I'm sure you have a whole list of approved activities that indicate someone is properly following a godly life and a whole list of activities that prove someone isn't living a godly life. Guess what? The activities on both lists are earthly concerns. They are all about humans and pleasure and feeling good.
I agree that people should not worry about deceased people. I don't think worry about any topic does much good and can lead to unhappiness. But it is perfectly normal and natural that people will mourn the dead, hold rituals in their honor, research and study them. That is a very human thing and not at all bad or wrong. No matter what some book says about it.
I don't believe that Jesus is dead. I DO believe that Jesus is uniquely different from the rest of us. When He returns, He will be the same as He was when He was visiting mortality the first time. He came to teach us specific things; He was doing the work of the Father (so who is the Father?).
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
The ways of the world distract us from figuring out who we are, why we are here, and what is really going on. Jesus was teaching us how we can answer those questions. In order to receive the answers we need to follow Him. But, we can't follow Him (understand what He taught) unless we let go of the world. What has happened is that we think that by professing a belief in Christ that we have somehow, therefore been able to find those answers. Yet, because we have not given up the world (our satan-self), we have not been able to see and hear the things Jesus was teaching us about our divine (God) self.
Still, Jesus did not come to judge the world; but to save it. One must ask what is He saving us from? He also said:
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
I'm not trying to judge anyone; I am making observations. I AM pointing out that the Church's teachings and efforts are worldly; they are not of God...they are not pleasing unto God.
I think that everything done in mortality serves an ultimate good purpose. We are here for the experience. Although religion gets in the way of our finding out the truth of who we are, etc., it also serves God's purposes in the grand scheme of things.
I no longer think that anything magical, or mystical, or "spiritual" is going on. I DO believe that what is going on is something that has been repeated and repeated endlessly. We are eternal beings; we have always existed. There is a purpose we participate inside of mortal worlds...and it is something that will continue to be done worlds without end. True "prophets" and a Christ for each mortal world will enter mortality from time to time to give us hints and clues. They are not, themselves, religious or magical or mystical...but they teach mankind according to the "religions" mankind has created. What man has not yet been able to definitively answer become identified by religion as the "mysteries of God"...which our Christ and other true "prophets" try to reveal to us as we progress through this phase of our existence which we call mortality.
It is all good. We are all right where we need to be.
Franktalk wrote:Evil? that's a hard one to support. I would call it an earthly distraction. I think you would have to mix in the intent to avoid following God for that to be evil. Maybe an example is in order. Let us say I am talking to my neighbor about fishing. I think we can say there is no evil in doing that. But what if in talking to my neighbor I distract him from seeing his cows escaping through a hole in his fence. Is it now evil to talk about fishing? We may conclude that it is evil if I knew about the cows and my intent was to distract my neighbor.
I meant "an evil" in a generic way. Like "a bad thing". Personally, I don't believe in evil. There are certainly bad things in the world, but evil as opposed to holy? Not an idea I can get on board with.
Knowingly distracting your friend while his cows escape would definitely be unneighborly, but it certainly does not show the influence of a Satan.
Franktalk wrote:Now we must ask what is the intent of the church in the work for the dead? Is the work pleasing to God? Or is it a law, a temporal law similiar to the laws handed down by Moses. The Jews in following the law thought of themselves as special. So in doing work for the dead someone could feel they are pleasing theirself. Another person could feel they are pleasing God and thus raising their chances of obtaining a higher place in heaven.
I'm not sure we must ask that, but for the sake of argument, lets. I'm pretty sure that not the church nor anyone else for that matter, knows what pleases God. I would imagine that ceremonies for the dead (in any religion) developed to ease the pain of loss for those left behind. If you are talking about the LDS Church and it's practice of baptism for the dead, then there are some caveats to my statement.
Franktalk wrote:I think once we have an intent to do something that Christ would not do then we have gone past an earthly past time and entered into evil territory. So if in our heart we feel we are just enjoying an earthly pleasure I can't see a problem. My comment to Just Me was in that light. But since you asked about evil I decided to describe how I see work for the dead. If I did work for the dead I would feel that I am doing something that Christ would not do. So I would feel I am drifting away from the teachings of Jesus.
Who speaks for Jesus regarding what he would or would not do? As I said earlier, I find the LDS practise of baptism for the dead very bizarre. I haven't a clue what Jesus or God (or the combination of both) would think about it.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
Quasimodo wrote:Who speaks for Jesus regarding what he would or would not do? As I said earlier, I find the LDS practise of baptism for the dead very bizarre. I haven't a clue what Jesus or God (or the combination of both) would think about it.
We only have a few things which he said, or supposed to have said. And much of that is left up to personal interpretation. I am sure that my interpretation of the scriptures does not match many people on the entire earth. But it is what it is. If I wish to follow the example of Christ I must do what I believe Christ would do. But I find I can't. It is too impossible for me. But I can try.
Quasimodo wrote:Who speaks for Jesus regarding what he would or would not do? As I said earlier, I find the LDS practise of baptism for the dead very bizarre. I haven't a clue what Jesus or God (or the combination of both) would think about it.
We only have a few things which he said, or supposed to have said. And much of that is left up to personal interpretation. I am sure that my interpretation of the scriptures does not match many people on the entire earth. But it is what it is. If I wish to follow the example of Christ I must do what I believe Christ would do. But I find I can't. It is too impossible for me. But I can try.
I wouldn't worry too much about it, Franktalk. Everyone has their very own interpretation of whatever philosophy of life they choose to follow. Even if you are a devout Christian, you can't expect to know what Jesus would have thought about any subject. You can only guess.
It's not surprising that you find it impossible to always act in the same way you guess Jesus might have done. I don't think any Christian is able to pull that one off. If it's any consolation, you are in very good company. The rest of humanity.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
1 Nephi 6:1 And now I, Nephi, do not give the genealogy of my fathers in this part of my record; neither at any time shall I give it after upon these plates which I am writing; for it is given in the record which has been kept by my father; wherefore, I do not write it in this work.
This decision not to include a long list of begats is our loss. Imagine the fun which we could have been had with all those inventive names.
