Scientific Prophecy vs. Religious or Biblical Prophecy

[_Gunnar]

Early this morning I witnessed an eclipse of the Moon that peaked at around 5:00 am Pacific Daylight Time, just as long ago predicted by science with an accuracy and precision of a tiny fraction of a second. Scientists predict with equal precision that it will occur again on 28 September later this year, and very few, if any, doubt that this prophecy will also be fulfilled. In fact, scientists have long shown that they can accurately prophecy such astronomical occurrences with impressive accuracy centuries and even millenia in advance. Nor are astronomical events the only things that scientists have successfully predicted in advance. Weather forecasting, though not as certain and precise as astronomical predictions, has a pretty impressive record of accuracy. What religious or biblical prophecies have ever proved to be anywhere near as certain, accurate or as unambiguous as these scientific prophecies? The Bible, despite fundamentalists' protestations to the contrary, is full of failed prophecies--some of which (like certain prophecies by Ezekiel) demonstrably failed even during the lifetime of the prophet who made them. The few prophecies claimed to have been fulfilled were so ambiguous as to what they actually predicted and/or the time they were to be fulfilled, that it was nearly inevitable that sooner or later something would happen that with a little imagination by a true believer could be interpreted as fulfillment of the prophecy. Sometimes people did not even decide what a prophecy was really about until something happened that some clever and imaginative charlatan could spin into a fulfillment of it.

Like it or not, religious prophecy has an abysmal record compared to scientific findings and predictions and lack of ambiguity. In particular, the failed prophecies of Joseph Smith have often been discussed on this forum.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey Gunnar!

Early this morning I witnessed an eclipse of the Moon that peaked at around 5:00 am Pacific Daylight Time, just as long ago predicted by science with an accuracy and precision of a tiny fraction of a second. Scientists predict with equal precision that it will occur again on 28 September later this year, and very few, if any, doubt that this prophecy will also be fulfilled. In fact, scientists have long shown that they can accurately prophecy such astronomical occurrences with impressive accuracy centuries and even millenia in advance.

Prophecy?

This isn't prophecy - it's math.

We have the location for every body in our solar system calculated out by the second for the next several (50-100?) years. So if you know where these bodies will be - in relation to other bodies - at any given time - you can surely tell when we will have an eclipse!

When an eclipse will happen is known (not prophesied) by knowing the relative positions of the earth, moon and sun at a given moment in time.

What religious or biblical prophecies have ever proved to be anywhere near as certain, accurate or as unambiguous as these scientific prophecies?

There are hundreds! (And they are actual prophecy)

Let me pick one:
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Judas gives up Jesus to Temple authorities after eating bread with Jesus -

Psalm 41:9 (written in 1023 BC - before Christ)
"Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me"

Judas gives up Jesus to Temple authorities for 30 pieces of silver -

Zechariah 11:12 (written 487 BC - before Christ)
"And I said unto them, if yea think good, give me my price, and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver"

Mathew 26:15 (New Testament)
"What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you? So they counted out for him thirty pieces of silver"

That's not mere scientific math - that's prophecy my friend!

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_ludwigm]

Nothing to do with prophecy.
That prices are standardized by Mosaic laws:

1. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2. Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When a man shall make a singular vow, the persons shall be for the LORD by thy estimation.
3. And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary.
4. And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels.
5. And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels.
6. And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.
7. And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels.
8. But if he be poorer than thy estimation, then he shall present himself before the priest, and the priest shall value him; according to his ability that vowed shall the priest value him.

Zechariah main problem was that he was estimated as he had been a female... The usual phallocracy of the scripture.
Zech 11:13. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them.


by the way see Leviticus 12 for more gender inequality:
2. Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
4. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.
5. But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.

[_moksha]

by the way see Leviticus 12 for more gender inequality:
2. Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
4. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.
5. But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.

Plus if she has cloven hooves, you have to wonder how a mountain goat got into your herd in the first place.



-----------------------
Are seismologists holding back on their accuracy of predictions because the insurance industry are such pricks, or is their science inexact?

[_Gunnar]

Ludwig is right. It is quite a stretch to interpret those passages from Zechariah as prophecies of Judas' betrayal of Jesus, even if the details of Judas' betrayal of Jesus and its consequences really happened as recorded by Matthew, and were not merely made up by him and related to that Zechariah passage in order to lend credence to claims of Christ's divinity, which is itself highly questionable. It would be far from the only case were Matthew stretched or distorted the meaning of ancient scriptural passages in order to characterize them as fulfilled prophecies of Jesus Christ.

See PROPHECIES: IMAGINARY AND UNFULFILLED for examples of failed prophecies, and the mental gymnastics often employed to explain away their failure.

By the Bible's own testimony, then, natural psychic ability could offer a perfectly sensible explanation for any example of prophecy that bibliolaters might cite in support of the inerrancy doctrine, but an unbiased contextual examination of the alleged prophecy will very likely uncover an even more rational explanation. Usually, Bible "prophecies" turn out to be prophecies only because imaginative Bible writers arbitrarily declared them to be prophecies. The same can be said of their alleged fulfillments: the fulfillments are fulfillments only because obviously biased New Testament writers arbitrarily declared them to be fulfillments

Even more telling is this:

Jesus claimed another fulfillment of nonprophecy in Luke 24:46. Speaking to his disciples on the night of his alleged resurrection, he said, "Thus it is written and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day." That the resurrection of Christ on the third day was prophesied in the scriptures was claimed also by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4: "For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures." In two different places, then, New Testament writers claimed that the resurrection of the Messiah on the third day had been predicted in the scriptures. Try as they may, however, bibliolaters cannot produce an Old Testament passage that made this alleged third-day prediction. It simply doesn't exist.

The following refers specifically to your example of the alleged prophecy fulfillment concerning Judas:

In another example, Matthew said that the purchase of the potter's field with the thirty pieces of silver that Judas cast back to the chief priests and elders fulfilled a prophecy made by Jeremiah: "Then was fulfilled that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was priced, whom certain of the children of Israel did price; and they gave them for the potter's field as the Lord appointed me" (27:9-10). The only problem is that Jeremiah never wrote anything remotely similar to this, so how could this be a fulfillment of "that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet"? Some scholars have suggested that Matthew was quoting "loosely" a statement that was actually written by Zechariah (11:12-13) rather than Jeremiah. If this is true, then one can only wonder why a divinely inspired writer, being guided by the omniscient Holy Spirit, would have said Jeremiah instead of Zechariah. To offer this as a solution to the problem posed by the passage doesn't do much to instill confidence in the inerrancy doctrine. Furthermore, if Matthew was indeed referring to Zechariah 11:12-13, then he certainly was "quoting loosely," so loosely, in fact, that any semblance of a connection between the two passages is barely recognizable: "Then I said to them, `If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain.' So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver. And Yahweh said to me, `Throw it to the potter'--that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of Yahweh for the potter" (NKJV). Many versions (RSV, NRSV, JB, NAB, REB, GNB, NWT, Moffatt, and Lamsa's translation from the Peshitta text) translate this passage to read treasury for potter, and the Septuagint (the Holy Spirit's favorite version) reads furnace for potter. All of these variations indicate that the meaning of the original certainly wasn't clear enough to claim this as a prophecy of the purchase of the potter's field with the money that Judas was paid to betray Jesus. If it was, then fundamentalists owe us an answer to the question posed earlier: Why did a divinely inspired writer attribute to Jeremiah a prophecy that was made by Zechariah? Of course, when bibliolaters talk about "wonderful prophecy fulfillments," they don't have much to say about this one. The reason why they don't should be obvious.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey again, Gunnar!

Ludwig is right.

It is quite a stretch to interpret those passages from Zechariah as prophecies of Judas' betrayal of Jesus

Ohhh.
Okay!
That was a short thread!

(Happy Easter belated)

Peace
Ceeboo

[_Bret Ripley]

Another example of scripture re-purposed as prophecy occurs in Matthew 1:22-23 ("all this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet ... and his name shall be called Emmanuel”). The reference is to Isaiah 7, in which 'Emmanuel' represents not a prophesy of some messiah in the distant future but as an assurance that Judea would not be destroyed by the immediate threat of the alliance between Syria and Ephraim. (Isaiah again uses the name 'Emmanuel' in chapter 8 to refer to the people who are about to be invaded by the Assyrians.)

[_The Way]

Mathew 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

[_LittleNipper]

Isaiah 53 This Chapter reads like it is the New Testament!

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 Who hath given credence to that which we heard? And the arm of Jehovah, On whom hath it been revealed?

2 Yea, he cometh up as a tender plant before Him, And as a root out of a dry land, He hath no form, nor honour, when we observe him, Nor appearance, when we desire him.

3 He is despised, and left of men, A man of pains, and acquainted with sickness, And as one hiding the face from us, He is despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, And our pains -- he hath carried them, And we -- we have esteemed him plagued, Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 And he is pierced for our transgressions, Bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement of our peace [is] on him, And by his bruise there is healing to us.

6 All of us like sheep have wandered, Each to his own way we have turned, And Jehovah hath caused to meet on him, The punishment of us all.

7 It hath been exacted, and he hath answered, And he openeth not his mouth, As a lamb to the slaughter he is brought, And as a sheep before its shearers is dumb, And he openeth not his mouth.

8 By restraint and by judgment he hath been taken, And of his generation who doth meditate, That he hath been cut off from the land of the living? By the transgression of My people he is plagued,

9 And it appointeth with the wicked his grave, And with the rich [are] his high places, Because he hath done no violence, Nor [is] deceit in his mouth.

10 And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed -- he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of Jehovah in his hand doth prosper.

11 Of the labour of his soul he seeth -- he is satisfied, Through his knowledge give righteousness Doth the righteous one, My servant, to many, And their iniquities he doth bear.

12 Therefore I give a portion to him among the many, And with the mighty he apportioneth spoil, Because that he exposed to death his soul, And with transgressors he was numbered, And he the sin of many hath borne, And for transgressors he intercedeth.


Bible Prophecy: Isaiah 53:3 says, "He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not."
• Fulfillment: John 1:10-11 says, "He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him."


• Bible Prophecy: Psalm 41:9 says, "Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me."
• Fulfillment: Mark 14:10 says, "Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them."


• Bible Prophecy: Zechariah 11:12 says, "I told them, 'If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.' So they paid me thirty pieces of silver."
• Fulfillment: Matthew 26:14-16 says, "Then one of the Twelve - the one called Judas Iscariot - went to the chief priests and asked, 'What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?' So they counted out for him thirty silver coins."


• Bible Prophecy: Isaiah 53:7 says, "He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth."
• Fulfillment: Mark 15:5 says, "But Jesus still made no reply, and Pilate was amazed."


• Bible Prophecy: Psalm 22:1-2 says, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent."
• Fulfillment: Matthew 27:46 says, "About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, 'Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?' - which means, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'"


• Bible Prophecy: Psalm 22:7-8 says, "All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads: 'He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.'"
• Fulfillment: Matthew 27:41-44 says, "In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 'He saved others,' they said, 'but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, I am the Son of God.' In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him."


• Bible Prophecy: Psalm 22:15 says, "My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death."
• Fulfillment: Matthew 27:48 says, "Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink."


• Bible Prophecy: Psalm 22:17-18 says, "I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing."
• Fulfillment: John 19:23 says, "When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom."

[_SteelHead]

The gospels were written 60 years after Jesus's death. It is easy to write prophecy after the fact.