Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[SaturdaysVoyeur]

That is a very long and impassioned response to an argument I did not make.

I am arguing that consent clearly and reasonably given in the moment should not be permitted to be withdrawn after the fact.

And unfortunately this sort of thing does happen.

I am not arguing that coercive tactics that are successful in accomplishing their goal should serve as a substitute for consent.

I hope that makes my position more clear.

Nope. My post was long because you don't get it, my friend. You're still huggin' that strawman. If you're going to engage with me about this, please show me the courtesy of actually reading what I wrote and responding to the content of it, not to what you perceive to be my emotions.

I'm happy to clarify anything that's unclear about it. It would probably help to start with the understanding that sexual violence is not a constant occurrence in your life and that women might have some light to shed for you on the subject.

[consiglieri]

That's a pretty compelling argument, consiglieri, although I will note that these days most are understandably inclined to take a woman's word when she has claimed that she revoked consent at some point

Oh, my God! You men are the dizzy limit!

No, Kish....no, I'm afraid that's a bit of a PC smokescreen. The truth is, most of the time, we just don't tell you guys when it happens. And in these sorts of discussions, sure, I might get an obligatory pat-on-the-head. But truly inclined to listen to and believe our experiences of sexual violence without either eyes glazing over or acting like we're being harpy bitches about it? Nope. Still extraordinarily rare, I'm afraid.

I'm always astounded at the extent to which men underestimate rates of sexual violence (i.e., the spectrum from that dude at work who pretends to fellate objects while smirking, to the quotidian gropes and grabs, to penetrative rape).

This stuff has happened to every woman you know. And to most of the girls. The first two types I listed above are so commonplace they're hardly even worth remarking on. Get on a bus and grab the overhead handle? Some guy grabs your tit. Out dancing with girlfriends? Some guy comes up and starts humping your butt.

This, right here in this moment, is what "Believe Women" is actually all about. It doesn't mean believe every single thing every single woman says no matter how preposterous or unsupported by evidence.

It means realize you don't see this stuff because you are largely shielded from it. Listen to our experiences. Adjust your baseline assumptions accordingly. And if you really want to go the extra mile, talk to other men you know about it.

It is not always easiest to communicate effectively by posting, but I want to assure you I have talked to enough women to know that what you are describing does in fact happen, and it happens way too much.

It makes me very upset to hear about such things and God help any man who tries something like that when I’m around.

I expect I am speaking for Kishkumen on this as well.

[Fifth Columnist]

Are you seriously suggesting that a woman might not realize until afterwards that, say, the date who keeps pushing her and groping her and ignoring her verbal "No, I don't want to," until she finally gives up and just lets him get it over with was, in fact, sexually assaulting her?

SV, just to be clear. Is this what you believe Consig is arguing? If not, what exactly, do you believe Consig is arguing? I've read your post twice now and I'm having a hard time understanding how it relates to what Consig said.

[Kishkumen]

That is a very long and impassioned response to an argument I did not make.

I am arguing that consent clearly and reasonably given in the moment should not be permitted to be withdrawn after the fact.

And unfortunately this sort of thing does happen.

I am not arguing that coercive tactics that are successful in accomplishing their goal should serve as a substitute for consent.

I hope that makes my position more clear.

That was my understanding of what you were saying, but I am happy for the further education in harassment, which accords with the many horrific stories I have encountered over the years. I have been made aware of so many instances of harassment, sexual assault, date rape, molestation, and other horrors. I also know that RFM was the victim of a sex crime as a kid. I, too, was a victim.

Nevertheless, I do not compare my experiences to those of others. At the same time, it is somewhat surprising to be told I am completely clueless. Not that I don’t value the further education and expanded awareness.

You see, I interpreted your words most particularly in reference to Rosebud and her shifting stories and claims. I also react as a victim of actual sexual harassment who is unhappy to see someone else claim to be a victim in this way, as a threat and weeks after the end of a consensual relationship.

[Kishkumen]

It is not always easiest to communicate effectively by posting, but I want to assure you I have talked to enough women to know that what you are describing does in fact happen, and it happens way too much.

It makes me very upset to hear about such things and God help any man who tries something like that when I’m around.

I expect I am speaking for Kishkumen on this as well.

Yeah, consiglieri. I don’t know that I want to relive my history as a victim for SV as I did for Rosebud just to show that this idea I am a clueless guy grasping for PC acceptance is inaccurate. I have been a victim and I have stood beside and supported my female friends in their trials as victims. I helped rescue a friend who felt trapped in a deeply abusive, criminally so, in fact, marriage.

[consiglieri]

It is not always easiest to communicate effectively by posting, but I want to assure you I have talked to enough women to know that what you are describing does in fact happen, and it happens way too much.

It makes me very upset to hear about such things and God help any man who tries something like that when I’m around.

I expect I am speaking for Kishkumen on this as well.

Yeah, consiglieri. I don’t know that I want to relive my history as a victim for SV as I did for Rosebud just to show that this idea I am a clueless guy grasping for PC acceptance is inaccurate. I have been a victim and I have stood beside and supported my female friends in their trials as victims. I helped rescue a friend who felt trapped in a deeply abusive, criminally so, in fact, marriage.

Where were you when I needed you?

[Kishkumen]

Where were you when I needed you?

On the other side of the country most likely.

[Kishkumen]

Looks like Rosebud has yet to release her text messages from 8-9-12.

Instead she wants to argue about their contents based on communications from the following day.

It would seem easiest and most straightforward for Rosebud to publish the texts from 8-9-12 so we can see whether they track what John Dehlin provided.

Her failure to do so makes me tend to think they are identical for all intents and purposes.

Until she does so, a cloud of doubt will continue to hover over her accusation.

[SaturdaysVoyeur]

It is not always easiest to communicate effectively by posting, but I want to assure you I have talked to enough women to know that what you are describing does in fact happen, and it happens way too much.

It makes me very upset to hear about such things and God help any man who tries something like that when I’m around.

I expect I am speaking for Kishkumen on this as well.

It's interesting how I was getting so much praise about how my lengthy posts were such a great contribution to the discussion. Yeah...I guess not so much anymore, huh?

See, your reply doesn't really make a whole lot of sense as a response to my original post to you about this topic.

Women don't need assurances that you understand Rape Is Bad. Or that you know it's common. We really super don't need to hear about how men have it really tough with all them false accusations goin' around these days. How about if the guy who avoids being alone with his babysitter did so out out of consideration for HER sense of safety, given the relatively frequency of rape vs. false accusations of same? Just a thought.

But my post to you had very little to do with any of this stuff.

One thing I would recommend in the strongest possible terms is that you not follow through on the "God help any man who tries that when I'm around!" stuff. That's sometimes called "white knighting" and it can put the woman you're trying to "protect" in a much more dangerous situation, especially a woman of color. (Also, it is, no offense, kind of making the situation all about your own reaction and not about her possible needs.)

If you see a woman you believe to be in a dangerous situation: First, realize that you are Schrodinger’s Rapist and proceed accordingly.
https://goodmenproject.com/on-rape-and- ... his-again/

ASK her if she needs help and what you can do. Don't just start a confrontation with the dude. If it's a domestic violence situation, you could get her killed doing that.

Tell you what: If you're actually interested in anything I'm saying, ask John Dehlin about this stuff. It's ironic as all hell, considering he's been getting dragged for a decade as the Big Bad Rapey Wolf, but he actually does get this stuff. At a minimum, he knows that he doesn't know. Imperfectly, but when he messes up, he picks himself up, says I'm sorry, and commits to doing better. He's a good ally to women.

Which, yeah, I realize is probably the most paradoxical thing posted to this thread so far.

[Kishkumen]

My understanding of DM (formerly MDB) after years of participation is that disagreement is common, and that people don’t have to agree from one moment to the next. We hash things out by discussing them, and sometimes it takes time for mutual understanding to emerge. You might be surprised to learn that you are not the first person to share this wisdom about women’s experience with me or with us here. Maybe you won’t be. Perhaps you feel we need to read your lesson again. We probably do. On the other hand, we can’t be sure that you know us or know our experience. We can’t be certain that you were following the exchange. You have come into a very old conversation. We have hashed out a lot of this stuff before. I do not retract my gratitude for the posts I praised or the ones that follow. At the same time, I feel no obligation to agree with your assumptions about us. Maybe I can be convinced that I really just don’t get it even though nothing you said about women’s experience surprised me or was new information. I am open to learning more.