huckelberry wrote: Moksha, don't worry too much. In Luke it says that he sweat like drops of blood. I do not know a Bible that said that he was actually hemorrhaging. My Bible notes that the verse making the comparison is not preset in all early manuscripts. The point of that may be uncertain, but Matthew Mark and John are silent about any bleeding or sweating like blood.
Wonder if the other two were silent because they had never seen such an occurrence. This physiological impossibility seems like such an odd thing for we LDS to base an entirely new concept of the atonement.
Makebelieve for peculiarities sake is just one more head shaker. It's like if we based our entire concept of Church patriarchy on Balaam's talking donkey, it might be peculiar but is it right?.
I don't have a hard time believing that it happened as scripture says it did.
Note that Ajax posted a link to the diagnosis of the condition, that it is possible to sweat bloodlike droplets from the pores of the body when under a great deal of stress. So... it is reasonable to assume Jesus the Christ was under an inordinate amount of stress the likes of which no one before or since has had to endure when he went through his grieving and wailing (prayerfully speaking,) in the garden.
Either you're a believer or you aren't. If you aren't, no amount of my defending what scriptures say is going to make any difference in your view. And I'm not trying to convert you to mine.
Jesus began suffering in the Garden of Eden, particularly in a spiritual sense (but ultimately the spiritual and physical are tied together).
The suffering continued with the tortures of the whip, the humilations, the crown of thorns, etc. The obvious outward physical suffering also represented inward spiritual suffering, which also continued onto the cross.
Jesus began suffering in the Garden of Eden, particularly in a spiritual sense (but ultimately the spiritual and physical are tied together).
The suffering continued with the tortures of the whip, the humilations, the crown of thorns, etc. The obvious outward physical suffering also represented inward spiritual suffering, which also continued onto the cross.
Again, it isn't either / or . It is BOTH.
-7up
Not according to the Book of Mormon
1 Nephi 11:33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.
Justice = Getting what you deserve Mercy = Not getting what you deserve Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
The answer is BOTH. Jesus began suffering in the Garden of Eden, particularly in a spiritual sense (but ultimately the spiritual and physical are tied together). The suffering continued with the tortures of the whip, the humilations, the crown of thorns, etc. The obvious outward physical suffering also represented inward spiritual suffering, which also continued onto the cross. Again, it isn't either / or . It is BOTH.
Mittens wrote: Not according to the Book of Mormon
1 Nephi 11:33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.
This is so typical of Mitten's brand of Christianity. You take one verse of scripture, ignore the immediate context, and disregard the rest of the text in general. Then you turn around and try to formulate some kind of conclusion that is above and beyond what the text was meant to convey in the first place.
Nephi was only given a brief summary of Christ's mortal ministry in that vision. If you read the chapter, it is very clear that this is only a short synopsis, with brief visual highlights. It was never meant to be detailed account of Christ's life, nor is it meant to be a detailed account of the Atonement.
Have none of you read D&C 19:18 " which suffering caused myself .even God ... to bled from every pore". It seems to me that the spiritual portion of the Atonement was accomplished in the Garden ( redemption from spiritual death ) and the physical portion ( redemption from physical death) on the cross
boo wrote:Have none of you read D&C 19:18 " which suffering caused myself .even God ... to bled from every pore". It seems to me that the spiritual portion of the Atonement was accomplished in the Garden ( redemption from spiritual death ) and the physical portion ( redemption from physical death) on the cross
It doesn't matter. What Christians and most Mormons teach about the atonement is frankly idiotic. If a god-like being visited our planet and performed the magic tricks that are attributed to JC (provided these stories weren't simply made-up), they certainly didn't need to die on our planet to accomplish that. After all, the atonement supposedly makes it possible that God could now forgive us of our sins and could resurrect us!?! If God is all-powerful (or at least seems that way and can do all the magic tricks claimed in the scriptures), they don't have to come here and die to do it. They could already do that before JC appeared and supposedly atoned for us.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
boo wrote:Have none of you read D&C 19:18 " which suffering caused myself .even God ... to bled from every pore". It seems to me that the spiritual portion of the Atonement was accomplished in the Garden ( redemption from spiritual death ) and the physical portion ( redemption from physical death) on the cross
The spiritual suffering continued on the cross, when God separated himself from Christ's presence (ie spiritual death).
(Which would be impossible if Jesus Christ and God the Father are literally the same Substance/Essence/Being , but that is a Trinitarian problem).
According to Christ, He had finished the work of the Father BEFORE either Gethsemane or the Cross:
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
Also, He taught others to take their own cross; In other words, He did NOT say that He would take the cross for others.
Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Just how serious was Christ when he spoke the gospel in Matt 5,6,7? Did He ever deny the gospel even while being tortured? Was the cross a way to demonstrate to a weak world that Jesus would stay true to His words even in the face of pain and suffering?
Did Jesus need to die to remove sin in the world? To remove sin is to prepare for judgement. But Jesus said He would not judge us.
Joh_12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
It is the church which has made a big deal of the cross. When we wake up from this mortal life we judge ourselves. No one else will judge us.
Franktalk wrote:Did Jesus need to die to remove sin in the world?
No. But it is simpler than that. Jesus didn't need to die to do anything. We just killed him and attached this nonsense to his murder. The fact is we (i.e. human-beings) killed him. There is no significance to the event other than that.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
