Why humans are born handicapped and minorities

[_The CCC]

As long as I treat others decently who gives a rats ass what I believe? I certainly don't care what you believe. From everything I seen the religious are some of the nicest most charitable people on earth. I've also seen some real loud mouth jerks too, but happily they are a small minority of loud mouth jerks.

What are the negative consequences of me praying like everything depended on God, and working like everything depended on me? Believe it or not it possible to chew gum and walk at the same time.

I find my beliefs feed my spirit. There is more to life than just food, shelter, and clothing. Slaves had to be fed, housed, and clothed. I'm reasonably sure you wouldn't like the life of a slave.

It is my time to waste. So at worst it is futile. While at best it does me and them some good. As Charles Dickens said "There are many things from which I might have derived good, by which I have not profited, I dare say,' returned the nephew. 'Christmas among the rest. But I am sure I have always thought of Christmas time, when it has come round -apart from the veneration due to its sacred name and origin, if anything belonging to it can be apart from that- as a good time; a kind, forgiving, charitable, pleasant time; the only time I know of, in the long calendar of the year, when men and women seem by one consent to open their shut-up hearts freely, and to think of people below them as if they really were fellow-passengers to the grave, and not another race of creatures bound on other journeys. And therefore, uncle, though it has never put a scrap of gold or silver in my pocket, I believe that it has done me good, and will do me good; and I say, God bless it!”
― Charles Dickens, A Christmas Carol

[_Themis]

As long as I treat others decently who gives a rats ass what I believe? I certainly don't care what you believe.

Of course you do. The church has tens of thousands of people going around full time caring about what people believe. Sure many beliefs we see as trivial and probably don't care. I suspect you would care very much if a family member had beliefs about health care you knew would hurt them if followed.

From everything I seen the religious are some of the nicest most charitable people on earth. I've also seen some real loud mouth jerks too, but happily they are a small minority of loud mouth jerks.

There is good and bad, but there is good people who believe bad things, or things that will have negative consequences. I gave the example of gays.

What are the negative consequences of me praying like everything depended on God, and working like everything depended on me? Believe it or not it possible to chew gum and walk at the same time.

You are creating a straw-man.

I find my beliefs feed my spirit. There is more to life than just food, shelter, and clothing.

Sure. All kinds of beliefs that contradict and are false can fill peoples spirit.

It is my time to waste. So at worst it is futile. While at best it does me and them some good.

That depends on the beliefs. With gays it can have very negative consequences. With something like temple work it is your time to waste. I suspect most members would wish they hadn't wasted that time if they found out it did no good for the dead. But it is your time to waste. I don't go out of my way to change people beliefs. At least for the ones that may not be that negative. The church certainly wants it members to go out of their way.

[_The CCC]

As long as I treat others decently who gives a rats ass what I believe? I certainly don't care what you believe.

Of course you do. The church has tens of thousands of people going around full time caring about what people believe. Sure many beliefs we see as trivial and probably don't care. I suspect you would care very much if a family member had beliefs about health care you knew would hurt them if followed.

From everything I seen the religious are some of the nicest most charitable people on earth. I've also seen some real loud mouth jerks too, but happily they are a small minority of loud mouth jerks.

There is good and bad, but there is good people who believe bad things, or things that will have negative consequences. I gave the example of gays.

What are the negative consequences of me praying like everything depended on God, and working like everything depended on me? Believe it or not it possible to chew gum and walk at the same time.

You are creating a straw-man.

I find my beliefs feed my spirit. There is more to life than just food, shelter, and clothing.

Sure. All kinds of beliefs that contradict and are false can fill peoples spirit.

It is my time to waste. So at worst it is futile. While at best it does me and them some good.

That depends on the beliefs. With gays it can have very negative consequences. With something like temple work it is your time to waste. I suspect most members would wish they hadn't wasted that time if they found out it did no good for the dead. But it is your time to waste. I don't go out of my way to change people beliefs. At least for the ones that may not be that negative. The church certainly wants it members to go out of their way.

As I already said: "Show me what you do and I'll know what you believe". One can honestly believe that smoking tobacco isn't bad for them. If they never smoke tobacco then who cares what they believe? Personally I believe the experts. It is bad.

They only talk to people what want to be talked to. Say that I'm a bread baker by trade. I bake what I consider wonderful quality bread. I certainly can ask people to try my bread, but if they don't want to try it. I really can't force them to.
SEE Articles of Faith #11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

I would add "or nothing at all"., for my atheistic friends.

As I already said: "Show me what you do and I'll know what you believe". In other words Faith without works is dead. Using the gays is a Red Herring argument. Minor children, at least in the US, have no right to make contract without parental consent. The LDS have no interest in dividing minor children from their parents. After 18 years old they can make that decision on their own. Also the LDS church has been instrumental in appealing to the State of Utah to formally recognize the rights of gays in housing, jobs, health care, and end of life decisions. In other words How gays are treated. Even the judge who decided against that gay couple foster care has reversed his own decision.

It is not a Straw Man argument. Just demonstrate your claim that beliefs have negative consequences. In my world it is actions that determine consequences.

No doubt, but you are missing a step. If a belief leads to bad actions then those consequences are bad. IE; If my belief in a God in spires me to good actions and good consequences. I'm fine with that. By the same token if my belief in God inspires me to bad actions and bad consequences. Then I'm not so fine with that. I like good consequences. So I look for beliefs that inspire me to good actions, and their good consequences. As Jesus said: "If you love me, keep my commandments".

Temple work by the LDS is still their time to waste. They believe they are under commandment from God to do it regardless if any accept or not. It helps the LDS feel better. If as my atheistic friends claim is it just this life then the Abyss. Why should anyone really care? If my Catholic friends want to say a few nice words about me after I'm dead. I like that idea, even better when they say nice words about me while I'm still alive.

[_SteelHead]

What would the world be like if instead of doing work for the dead in the temples, LDS folk spent the equivalent amount of time and money doing work for the living? Helping the poor, providing education and classes, soup kitchens.....

[_Themis]

As I already said: "Show me what you do and I'll know what you believe". One can honestly believe that smoking tobacco isn't bad for them. If they never smoke tobacco then who cares what they believe? Personally I believe the experts. It is bad.

I already said some beliefs can be trivial and harmless. This one can be harmful if one decides to smoke. Just like other health related beliefs that may be false. In the real world we know many will follow those beliefs. Some of these beliefs can be a part of religion.

They only talk to people what want to be talked to. Say that I'm a bread baker by trade. I bake what I consider wonderful quality bread. I certainly can ask people to try my bread, but if they don't want to try it. I really can't force them to.

This is another I already said we can't force people to listen. It doesn't change that the church cares about certain beliefs people have. You also care if you have any love for others.

SEE Articles of Faith #11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

I would add "or nothing at all"., for my atheistic friends.

As long as it doesn't hurt others. It still doesn't mean we don't want to persuade people from harmful beliefs or even incorrect beliefs. We may not if the belief is not very harmful or that a change of beliefs may be considered more harmful for them. by the way Atheists have many beliefs and can include religious ones.

As I already said: "Show me what you do and I'll know what you believe". In other words Faith without works is dead. Using the gays is a Red Herring argument. Minor children, at least in the US, have no right to make contract without parental consent. The LDS have no interest in dividing minor children from their parents. After 18 years old they can make that decision on their own. Also the LDS church has been instrumental in appealing to the State of Utah to formally recognize the rights of gays in housing, jobs, health care, and end of life decisions. In other words How gays are treated. Even the judge who decided against that gay couple foster care has reversed his own decision.

The church is lying about the reason for not allowing these children to be baptized. If they were concerned about keeping families together they would apply it across the board. As you say they already require parental permission, but they have no problem baptizing children of parents shacking up together unless they are gay. Both are condemned as sinful. In fact the church has like to suggest they are equally sinful. You also ignore the gay issue is about more then this and how it can impact member's in negative ways. Especially gay youth.

It is not a Straw Man argument. Just demonstrate your claim that beliefs have negative consequences. In my world it is actions that determine consequences.

There are stories all over about negative impacts to gays in the church. This is only one area where we can see negative impacts from certain beliefs.

No doubt, but you are missing a step. If a belief leads to bad actions then those consequences are bad. IE; If my belief in a God in spires me to good actions and good consequences. I'm fine with that. By the same token if my belief in God inspires me to bad actions and bad consequences. Then I'm not so fine with that. I like good consequences. So I look for beliefs that inspire me to good actions, and their good consequences. As Jesus said: "If you love me, keep my commandments".

It's much more complex then this, but yes some false beliefs can inspire people to do good or bad. I guess the reason I figured out the church was not true was a higher desire for truth then the desire for certain beliefs to be true.

[_The CCC]

What would the world be like if instead of doing work for the dead in the temples, LDS folk spent the equivalent amount of time and money doing work for the living? Helping the poor, providing education and classes, soup kitchens.....

It is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time. While small in size the LDS have good record of providing relief to the poor. A good chunk of LDS money's go to the BYU system of universities. There are a few LDS members running in/working with soup kitchens, but its largest contribution is in their Bishop's Storehouse, where food is provided to any that ask.

[_The CCC]

As I already said: "Show me what you do and I'll know what you believe". One can honestly believe that smoking tobacco isn't bad for them. If they never smoke tobacco then who cares what they believe? Personally I believe the experts. It is bad.

I already said some beliefs can be trivial and harmless. This one can be harmful if one decides to smoke. Just like other health related beliefs that may be false. In the real world we know many will follow those beliefs. Some of these beliefs can be a part of religion.

They only talk to people what want to be talked to. Say that I'm a bread baker by trade. I bake what I consider wonderful quality bread. I certainly can ask people to try my bread, but if they don't want to try it. I really can't force them to.

This is another I already said we can't force people to listen. It doesn't change that the church cares about certain beliefs people have. You also care if you have any love for others.

SEE Articles of Faith #11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

I would add "or nothing at all"., for my atheistic friends.

As long as it doesn't hurt others. It still doesn't mean we don't want to persuade people from harmful beliefs or even incorrect beliefs. We may not if the belief is not very harmful or that a change of beliefs may be considered more harmful for them. by the way Atheists have many beliefs and can include religious ones.

As I already said: "Show me what you do and I'll know what you believe". In other words Faith without works is dead. Using the gays is a Red Herring argument. Minor children, at least in the US, have no right to make contract without parental consent. The LDS have no interest in dividing minor children from their parents. After 18 years old they can make that decision on their own. Also the LDS church has been instrumental in appealing to the State of Utah to formally recognize the rights of gays in housing, jobs, health care, and end of life decisions. In other words How gays are treated. Even the judge who decided against that gay couple foster care has reversed his own decision.

The church is lying about the reason for not allowing these children to be baptized. If they were concerned about keeping families together they would apply it across the board. As you say they already require parental permission, but they have no problem baptizing children of parents shacking up together unless they are gay. Both are condemned as sinful. In fact the church has like to suggest they are equally sinful. You also ignore the gay issue is about more then this and how it can impact member's in negative ways. Especially gay youth.

It is not a Straw Man argument. Just demonstrate your claim that beliefs have negative consequences. In my world it is actions that determine consequences.

There are stories all over about negative impacts to gays in the church. This is only one area where we can see negative impacts from certain beliefs.

No doubt, but you are missing a step. If a belief leads to bad actions then those consequences are bad. IE; If my belief in a God in spires me to good actions and good consequences. I'm fine with that. By the same token if my belief in God inspires me to bad actions and bad consequences. Then I'm not so fine with that. I like good consequences. So I look for beliefs that inspire me to good actions, and their good consequences. As Jesus said: "If you love me, keep my commandments".

It's much more complex then this, but yes some false beliefs can inspire people to do good or bad. I guess the reason I figured out the church was not true was a higher desire for truth then the desire for certain beliefs to be true.

That is a non sequitur. The key there is that unless they actually smoke any proposed harm is nonexistent. Mother nature has a way of weeding out those that actually do something harmful to themselves, regardless of what, if anything, they believe.

Unlike you I don't start with the priori that someone is lying. Without parental consent no minor child can be baptized. If two heterosexuals are "shacking up" any minor child is still going to have parental consent to be baptized. The very act of baptism religiously separates that child from his/her parents.
There is a very good reason to not baptize anyone who is not free to make that decision on their own. A minor child is not free to make that decision without parental consent.

Being a homosexual, young or old, as a member in the LDS church is hard, and my heart goes out to them. Obeying calls to repentance are always hard. However the LDS are not going to change their doctrine just to make it easier on anyone. Find another church, or none at all, there are plenty out there that are a better fit for them.

Caring about is a long way from forcing a belief on someone who doesn't want it. Let them believe, or not believe, as they choose.

I'm fine with you not believing the Truth Claims of the LDS. I don't even mind if you tell me about your beliefs, or lack there of, are. I do object to you telling me what I believe however. I'm not a liar for telling you what I believe. I won't tell you what you believe. We all choose to believe or not believe as we want. I obviously choose to believe.

[_SteelHead]

What would the world be like if instead of doing work for the dead in the temples, LDS folk spent the equivalent amount of time and money doing work for the living? Helping the poor, providing education and classes, soup kitchens.....

It is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time. While small in size the LDS have good record of providing relief to the poor. A good chunk of LDS money's go to the BYU system of universities. There are a few LDS members running in/working with soup kitchens, but its largest contribution is in their Bishop's Storehouse, where food is provided to any that ask.

Didn't actually address the question. ..... A huge amount of time and money goes into doing work for the dead. How much good would be done in the world if small, simple temples for living ordinances were the norm, and the time and money used for work for the dead redirected into alleviating human suffering?

Work for the dead is a sop, used to placate the conscience of memebrs, while collecting tithes and building ornate edifices. Colossal waste of time and money, in the face of the real needs of real people. The church spends a pittance on non member charitable contributions. The rich young man, left sorrowing, because he had many possessions.

[_Themis]

That is a non sequitur. The key there is that unless they actually smoke any proposed harm is nonexistent. Mother nature has a way of weeding out those that actually do something harmful to themselves, regardless of what, if anything, they believe.

You still want to help someone have the correct beliefs. The person who doesn't smoke but believes it is not harmful is likely to be pass on that belief to others who may choose to smoke. Like their kids.

Unlike you I don't start with the priori that someone is lying.

I just looked at the facts available. I am not suggesting they don't care about families staying together. It's just that the policy only goes after one type of family. If that was the only reason then they would have applied it to all children of parents who are living in sin as the church sees it.

Without parental consent no minor child can be baptized. If two heterosexuals are "shacking up" any minor child is still going to have parental consent to be baptized.

No the change in policy does let these children be baptized even if gay parents give their consent.

There is a very good reason to not baptize anyone who is not free to make that decision on their own. A minor child is not free to make that decision without parental consent.

Yes accept now children of gay parents are not allowed even with parental consent.

Being a homosexual, young or old, as a member in the LDS church is hard, and my heart goes out to them. Obeying calls to repentance are always hard. However the LDS are not going to change their doctrine just to make it easier on anyone. Find another church, or none at all, there are plenty out there that are a better fit for them.

That doesn't change the fact that the belief is harmful, and many gay youth will not be given that option of another church from their parents. Their parents may do harm in the belief they are doing what is best for their child. We may have the right in many cases but it doesn't change the harm done. We should care to change harmful beliefs.

Caring about is a long way from forcing a belief on someone who doesn't want it. Let them believe, or not believe, as they choose.

Straw-man. No one even came close to suggesting we force beliefs on anyone.

I'm fine with you not believing the Truth Claims of the LDS. I don't even mind if you tell me about your beliefs, or lack there of, are. I do object to you telling me what I believe however. I'm not a liar for telling you what I believe. I won't tell you what you believe. We all choose to believe or not believe as we want. I obviously choose to believe.

I didn't call you a liar. I called the church's excuse on the new gay policy a lie. I never said what you believe other then to suggest you do care and showed examples to show you would have to be a poor human being not to care about what others believe to some extent. If you went on a mission like I did you would probably care about what others believe or you just went to keep family happy.

[_Themis]

What would the world be like if instead of doing work for the dead in the temples, LDS folk spent the equivalent amount of time and money doing work for the living? Helping the poor, providing education and classes, soup kitchens.....

It is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time. While small in size the LDS have good record of providing relief to the poor. A good chunk of LDS money's go to the BYU system of universities. There are a few LDS members running in/working with soup kitchens, but its largest contribution is in their Bishop's Storehouse, where food is provided to any that ask.

No one was suggesting they can't do both, but the problem is time and resources. Both are limited so if you use them for things that do no good then you have less for things that do good. I know I wished I could have done more good with my time then going to the temple. I suspect most believers would as well if they found out it was not true.