Why humans are born handicapped and minorities

[_The CCC]

I don't have a problem with gay's. Some of my close relatives are gay. I would hate to see anything bad happen to them. I just don't agree with some of their actions. My religion teaches me to love my gay friends, relatives, and neighbors. To encourage them to do what I consider better actions. It is not my or any other mortals job to do injury to anyone based on their sexuality.

Then open your eyes. Accepting, and welcoming, people doesn't necessitate agreeing with their religion or lack there of.

While we may have the right to believe what we like, beliefs have consequences. They propel us to actions.

Maybe. There was the greater issue of freedom of religion. For all of Americans proclamations to freedom of religion when it came to the LDS it was not so much. Personally I have no desire for more than the one wife I've had for the last 43 years. If one, two, three, or more, consenting adults want to marry the same person it is really none of my concern.

Yet if US government had done the same the LDS church today would look just like the FLDS with all it's problems.

Then punish the illegal actions, but let's not make thoughts the crime.

i really don't care what consenting adults do between the bed sheets. The FLDS involved minors, and used welfare fraud. Both of which I assume you do not approve of.

[_Themis]

Then punish the illegal actions, but let's not make thoughts the crime.

I am not aware they did make thoughts a crime.

i really don't care what consenting adults do between the bed sheets. The FLDS involved minors, and used welfare fraud. Both of which I assume you do not approve of.

They are following the example of Joseph and BY. You condemn the FLDS but I suspect you won't condemn Joseph. In his AoF is says he and the church believe in sustaining and following the law yet he lied about his polygamy and it was against the bigamy laws of the state he was practicing it in. He married other men's wives behind most of their backs and young girls. This is the example the FLDS have to follow. The FLDS know Joseph didn't follow the law of the land so I suspect they may feel they shouldn't have to as well. They probably think they are following the law of God and that these laws are above all others.

[Guest]

The actual truth is that idolatry is ANYTHING that is placed above GOD. This goes for SEX, DRUGS, TATTOOS, TELEVISION, CELL PHONES, and even FOOTBALL! Adultery breaks many of God's Laws. For one it is idolatry and for another stealing (taking another's spouse). If one is spreading a sexually transmitted disease around (either knowingly or unknowingly) that individual can easily be partner to murder (HIV is a prime example).

Often sexually transmitted diseases are the cause of birth defects ----- as is drug use. So, man is by Adam is at fault and not God. If anything God is merciful in that He provided a wonderful future if we come to Him through Christ. If we do not come to Him, then we end up with what we created for ourselves throughout all eternity --- handicapped and alone.

It is absolutely true that everyone is handicapped, visibly and invisibly. Everyone comes short of the glory of God. There is none that do good --- no not one.

[_subgenius]

Then punish the illegal actions, but let's not make thoughts the crime.

I am not aware they did make thoughts a crime.

Ignorance of the law is not an accepted defense in a court of law.
Perhaps you should contemplate the criminal difference between premeditated and not.

[_Themis]

Ignorance of the law is not an accepted defense in a court of law.
Perhaps you should contemplate the criminal difference between premeditated and not.

Nice to see you still have no clue.

[_The CCC]

Then punish the illegal actions, but let's not make thoughts the crime.

I am not aware they did make thoughts a crime.

i really don't care what consenting adults do between the bed sheets. The FLDS involved minors, and used welfare fraud. Both of which I assume you do not approve of.

They are following the example of Joseph and BY. You condemn the FLDS but I suspect you won't condemn Joseph. In his AoF is says he and the church believe in sustaining and following the law yet he lied about his polygamy and it was against the bigamy laws of the state he was practicing it in. He married other men's wives behind most of their backs and young girls. This is the example the FLDS have to follow. The FLDS know Joseph didn't follow the law of the land so I suspect they may feel they shouldn't have to as well. They probably think they are following the law of God and that these laws are above all others.

You keep insisting that thoughts equal actions.

If Joseph Smith would have recommended sexual intercourse with any female outside of marriage he would have been lauded for his "Free Love". Read D&C 132 it is right there. !4 was the legal age of consent in early 1800's. There was no welfare in the early 1800's. Nope, your Presentism is showing. by the way Deseret was outside the US.

[_Themis]

You keep insisting that thoughts equal actions.

Laws govern actions, but thoughts do precede action. They are connected even though we do not outlaw thoughts.

If Joseph Smith would have recommended sexual intercourse with any female outside of marriage he would have been lauded for his "Free Love".

Sure and I believe some in his day were. That was not the problem. He was saying one thing and doing another. He gave rules to the church and then broke them when he liked. He was also very manipulative.

Read D&C 132 it is right there.

Free love is not there. He set up some rules later on in secret that favored the man, and he couldn't even keep those rules. Read up the history of Joseph's polygamy and womanizing and then go read section 132 some time.

!4 was the legal age of consent in early 1800's. There was no welfare in the early 1800's. Nope, your Presentism is showing. by the way Deseret was outside the US.

No presentism. You ignore that I said FLDS were following Joseph's example not only in marrying young girls but breaking the law. Joseph never lived in Deseret which also didn't last long and was never a real country. So if Joseph felt above the law I suspect FLDS leaders may as well.

[_The CCC]

You keep insisting that thoughts equal actions.

Laws govern actions, but thoughts do precede action. They are connected even though we do not outlaw thoughts.

If Joseph Smith would have recommended sexual intercourse with any female outside of marriage he would have been lauded for his "Free Love".

Sure and I believe some in his day were. That was not the problem. He was saying one thing and doing another. He gave rules to the church and then broke them when he liked. He was also very manipulative.

Read D&C 132 it is right there.

Free love is not there. He set up some rules later on in secret that favored the man, and he couldn't even keep those rules. Read up the history of Joseph's polygamy and womanizing and then go read section 132 some time.

!4 was the legal age of consent in early 1800's. There was no welfare in the early 1800's. Nope, your Presentism is showing. by the way Deseret was outside the US.

No presentism. You ignore that I said FLDS were following Joseph's example not only in marrying young girls but breaking the law. Joseph never lived in Deseret which also didn't last long and was never a real country. So if Joseph felt above the law I suspect FLDS leaders may as well.

Then punish the action. Your thoughts are between you and your conscience. Your actions are between you and the law.

Polygamy was a matter of commandment. For those not given the command there is no responsibility, or expectation to obey.

No one that I know has ever denied that Joseph Smith had multiple wives. Plus the women were always free to say no. The women that I know aren't mindless sheep.

You are not paying attention. My objections to polygamy are not based on the law. Marry whomever as many times as you want. It really is none of my concern. My objections are based on my personal feelings. I have no desire for more than the one wife I've has for the last 43 years. Plus sociologically it is a dead end. About 103 males are born for every 100 females. If all survive to reproduce with polygamy relatively soon there won't be enough females to continue polygamy.

[_Themis]

Then punish the action. Your thoughts are between you and your conscience. Your actions are between you and the law.

No one is punishing peoples thoughts. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get people to get rid of bad ideas that can lead to bad outcomes and actions. I know that I usually have to add, to people who always think the worst, is that I am not suggesting we try and force people to change beliefs. I never even suggested it yet why is this where it seems to go with some people?

Polygamy was a matter of commandment. For those not given the command there is no responsibility, or expectation to obey.

I know what Joseph was doing. The issue is that he said one thing and did another. He lied about it. He made rules in which he never intended that he would follow. He manipulated people to get what he wanted.

No one that I know has ever denied that Joseph Smith had multiple wives. Plus the women were always free to say no. The women that I know aren't mindless sheep.

You say you are a social scientist but show so much ignorance in how people can abuse and manipulate others. It is not the black and white world you are trying to see here. Mindless sheep is a straw-man. Most people may not be mindless sheep, but most are not free of the influence of their environment. If the world were as you think frauds would have little success. battered women would all leave husbands and boyfriends. The easiest person to manipulate into things they would not normally do is the believer. I suspect Joseph had little success manipulating the unbeliever in his claims. It is a common trait of religious leaders(especially founders) to use their position to gain sexual access to adherents. Especially the young who are more easily manipulated. Interesting you will condemn others but not Joseph for doing the same things. The bias of the believer to their cause. I've been there, and even now I am not free of those influences.

You are not paying attention. My objections to polygamy are not based on the law. Marry whomever as many times as you want. It really is none of my concern. My objections are based on my personal feelings. I have no desire for more than the one wife I've has for the last 43 years. Plus sociologically it is a dead end. About 103 males are born for every 100 females. If all survive to reproduce with polygamy relatively soon there won't be enough females to continue polygamy.

Your objections seem non-existent to what we are really talking about. Joseph's willingness to say one thing and do another. You don't seem to object to his lying about it. Or his breaking laws he says he believes in sustaining. Or how about not following his own claimed revelations about polygamy. Hard to and still want to believe he was God's messenger.

[_The CCC]

Then punish the action. Your thoughts are between you and your conscience. Your actions are between you and the law.

No one is punishing peoples thoughts. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get people to get rid of bad ideas that can lead to bad outcomes and actions. I know that I usually have to add, to people who always think the worst, is that I am not suggesting we try and force people to change beliefs. I never even suggested it yet why is this where it seems to go with some people?

Polygamy was a matter of commandment. For those not given the command there is no responsibility, or expectation to obey.

I know what Joseph was doing. The issue is that he said one thing and did another. He lied about it. He made rules in which he never intended that he would follow. He manipulated people to get what he wanted.

No one that I know has ever denied that Joseph Smith had multiple wives. Plus the women were always free to say no. The women that I know aren't mindless sheep.

You say you are a social scientist but show so much ignorance in how people can abuse and manipulate others. It is not the black and white world you are trying to see here. Mindless sheep is a straw-man. Most people may not be mindless sheep, but most are not free of the influence of their environment. If the world were as you think frauds would have little success. battered women would all leave husbands and boyfriends. The easiest person to manipulate into things they would not normally do is the believer. I suspect Joseph had little success manipulating the unbeliever in his claims. It is a common trait of religious leaders(especially founders) to use their position to gain sexual access to adherents. Especially the young who are more easily manipulated. Interesting you will condemn others but not Joseph for doing the same things. The bias of the believer to their cause. I've been there, and even now I am not free of those influences.

You are not paying attention. My objections to polygamy are not based on the law. Marry whomever as many times as you want. It really is none of my concern. My objections are based on my personal feelings. I have no desire for more than the one wife I've has for the last 43 years. Plus sociologically it is a dead end. About 103 males are born for every 100 females. If all survive to reproduce with polygamy relatively soon there won't be enough females to continue polygamy.

Your objections seem non-existent to what we are really talking about. Joseph's willingness to say one thing and do another. You don't seem to object to his lying about it. Or his breaking laws he says he believes in sustaining. Or how about not following his own claimed revelations about polygamy. Hard to and still want to believe he was God's messenger.

I really don't care what people believe. One can believe in vampires, as long as they don't turn into Buffy the Vampire Slayer that belief is between them and their conscience.

I don't have a problem with talking with people about almost any subject they want. Albeit somethings I know more about than other things. I'm the worlds foremost expert on what I believe

It is right there is in D&C 132. He held others to the same standard. By commandment. That some took the authority on their own to become polygamous is not the fault of Joseph Smith.

Believe me I know very well that some choose to manipulate and control others. To play into people's emotions rather than the intellect is a time worn trait of demagogues and tyrants alike. Joseph Smith was neither.

That is a trait common to many including those that abuse religion for their own sexual gratification(Some Hindu beliefs about sex withstanding). What is very rare is for them to marry them, and thus incur all the financial obligations attendant to marriage.

I object to anyone lying, but it needs to be tempered by circumstance. There is no good answer when a wife asks if "Does this dress make me look fat?" by the way Emma was present at least some of the polygamous marriage ceremonies.

It was the law to murder, and/or drive from the state the LDS. Do you really expect the LDS to follow that law?

Whether you believe it or not is up to you. As for me and my house we will follow the Lord's servants.