Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[Doctor Steuss]

Rosebud herself states she hasn’t been paying any attention to anything posted anywhere. She’s put this whole affair behind her. That’s from her Facebook. So, read into that what you will given the last few pages.

- Doc

This would certainly explain the complete lack of friendship in regards to how her main advocate is approaching this, and why they are all too happy to use her as the pilot and plane in their kamikaze attack on the SS Dehlin.

[drumdude]

they are all too happy to use her as the pilot and plane in their kamikaze attack on the SS Dehlin.

[Kishkumen]

It would take a lot of time to ferret it out, but I would sure like to know how all of these conflicts and realignments came into being. How did KK pick up this hobby of sticking up for Rosebud? I know of her own beef with Dehlin, but what I don't know is how the connection with Rosebud was made. I had read somewhere that KK had invited Rosebud to participate in KK's appearance on the Kwaku show, but Rosebud declined. So, there was some communication. But what was the full extent of it?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

...

Sexual assault is more like if you gave your house keys to a trusted friend while you went out of town, and while you were gone, your friend robbed you blind. Would you consider yourself to blame for having trusted your friend to watch your house? Would you (like the woman I talked to years ago) say it's your own fault because you just should have chosen better friends?

I'll turn your question around back to you: To what extent, if any, is rape ever the rapist's fault? And how much are you willing to not live your life to try to "prevent" something that is not your doing and not your responsibility?

Avoiding parking garages and never being alone and never going outside after dark isn't going to protect you from the statistically most likely culprit: Your husband or partner.

I don't quite understand why women are so eager to gulp down blame for sexual violence, except that it does provide a false sense of security. It won't happen to me if I just do everything right, if I just take every precaution.

But it can and does happen, even if you could do everything right and could take every precaution. That still doesn't ever make it your fault in any way, shape, or form. Ever. Period.

I think when I read comments like the above I’m reminded of times, before these issues were elevated and spotlighted in order to change our culture, where sexual improprieties, assault, and everything in between was fairly routine for little girls, teens, young women, and women. This post from Reddit, I think, does a good job at reminding us what life was and is like for women:

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMyst ... a/gyjhfou/

– ]womangirl 1132 points 10 hours ago

I wouldn't say it was "normal" but I too am around her age, and at the time (age 12-16) I did not see it as abnormal.
Back then, whether you were a famous actress or a young girl in a relatively small town, it was not only not so out of the ordinary for older people to party with and come on to younger girls (and I imagine boys as well), but also a LOT easier for them to do so without repercussions from the kind of media we have now and with the education that young kids get regarding these situations.

I know that there were not just 1 or 2, but MANY men aged 20 - 40 who willingly bought alcohol for or drank alcohol with, smoked pot with/sold pot to, sold cocaine to/offered free cocaine to me and/or my friends when we were between 12 and 16 years old.

Those things, alcohol/drugs, sometimes led to those men also flirting with, coming on to, feeling up (breasts and more), attempting to have sex with and, in some cases, succeeding in having sex with girls who were anywhere from 10 to almost 30 years younger than them.

And most of the time none of those girls told any parent or adult with the authority to do anything about it, for fear of getting in trouble themselves, social repercussions, or the fact that many times if they did, it was brushed off, blamed on themselves, or swept under the rug.

Personally, 3 of the several families that I babysat for had fathers that offered me alcohol and drugs, and were creepy with me. One married dad fed me stronger and stronger alcoholic drinks, then back rubs where he felt up my side boobs and ass as I was semi conscious, face down on the floor drunk at 13-14 years old.

Another married dad who tried to kiss me more than once as he dropped me off in my driveway after babysitting his children, again, at 13-15 years old.

Another married dad who smoked pot with me and offered me pills and other drugs anytime his wife wasn't around, as well as flirted with me and told me how awful their marriage was.

A 36 year old who I met on vacation had no issue wooing me, "dating" me for the week, bringing me to nightclubs and fancy dinners, and having sex with me, knowing full well that I was 16 years old. I didn't even have my driver's license yet.

And not for nothing, the majority of these guys were for the most part, the typical family man, with young kids and married. And they absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, knew that they would get away with being pervy with us young girls at the time.
And to be honest, at that time, at that age, most of us didn't even consider going to any kind of authority, because mostly, we didn't realize it was wrong.

It was nice to get attention from men, it was fun to get drunk and try drugs and if we regretted it later, well, I know I felt like it was my own fault for allowing it to happen.

I'm certainly not saying it was ok, it definitely wasn't. But honestly, my girlfriends and I were not prepared in any way as to how to deal with advances from grown men who we were supposed to trust and look up to when those kinds of things happened. And happened they sure did.

We didn't live in Hollywood and weren't movie stars. We didn't live in big cities, or come from broken families. In fact, my elementary school had around 50-60 kids per grade and I didn't know anyone who's parents were divorced until high school. We weren't neglected or abused, or children of addicts (well, maybe a few alcoholics here and there, but definitely high functioning alcoholics) or homeless and left to our own devices.

Seriously, things were VERY different in the 80's and the years prior.

The only local news was BIG news, and there was much less world news. If you didn't watch the 6 o'clock news you missed it until the next day for the most part.

Forensic evidence... Ha!

It was your word against theirs, unless there were reliable witnesses (meaning more credible than yourself, as a young girl who used drugs or alcohol, even if it was practically forced on you).

And that was only if!!!!

As a silly young girl who accepted attention from older men, or alcohol, or (gasp) drugs... you even CONSIDERED accusing an adult!!!

of touching, groping, or stealing a feel of your body when they were CLEARLY happily married men, stand up members of society, or someone who's certain they'll never see you again after you return to your home hundreds or thousands of miles away.

Yeah... Even if I'd recognized at the time that what was happening to me and my friends was just plain wrong, I highly doubt that I would've even begun to attempt to accuse any of those men of wrongdoing, nor would have (or did) any of my friends.

And we didn't have the pressure of losing an income, getting bad publicity, being blacklisted by Hollywood, or dealing with men with even an iota of power that Drew, Brooke, or any of the young girls who lived that life had to deal with.

Truthfully, only 30+ years later, while discussing some of the things that happened to us as young girls, did I realize that I'd been sexually molested by several men, and only JUST found out about 3 of us who'd been raped, 2 of them absolutely brutally. None of us ever told anyone outside of our circle of friends.

I can't even imagine what those young ladies like Drew and Brooke, who had so much more pressure and so much to lose, went through at that age. My heart breaks for them.

Edited to add: Someone has contacted Reddit Cares out of concern for my well being. I can absolutely assure everyone that I am completely fine, those things happened a long time ago. I saw a therapist for years and we addressed that time in my life and how to move forward.

If anyone is having trouble with abuse now or has untreated trauma from the past, I implore you to seek help as soon as possible. Reach out to me if you want and I will do my best to steer you in the correct direction in finding resources to help you.

I’m not sure what else to add to the above and to SV’s various statements, but perhaps another way to look at Rosebud’s experience with JD is in context to the life and culture she was raised in. I’m not attempting to diminish her choices she made as an adult, but I think we all can agree we’re all products of our childhoods, our relationships as we grow and develop, and the culture we experience on a daily basis.

A lot of what I see in Rosebud’s “regret” is in actuality a woman coming to terms with her process, what led her to that point, and the embedded psychological factors that contributed to the bad choices she made, the susceptibility to be coerced or talked into behaviors she initially resisted or didn’t enthusiastically desire, and the inevitable blowback she’d received for making her experiences with JD public in an effort to seek some form of justice for herself, perhaps some validation for her experiences, and as a warning to other women who similarly are in a vulnerable psychological and emotional states, and possibly even physical situations, that their lives conditioned them to be highly susceptible to suggestion in addition to being conditioned to please others.

And, I’m just being fair here, if JD was in a position where he was ‘life coaching’ others, or providing therapy to damaged and vulnerable folks coming out of Mormonism, he knew damn well what he was doing with and doing to Rosebud. You don’t accumulate that kind of experience with others, have that kind of education, both formal and informal, and not know if you’re manipulating a vulnerable soul. He damned knew it. So, I’m putting that on him.

As far as Rosebud’s responsibilities go, we’ve hashed and rehashed them so I don’t feel the need to do it again. But, I think JD’s actions and motivations have been given too much of a pass, or at the very least haven’t been scrutinized as keenly as Rosebud’s have.

- Doc

[Tavares Standfield]

It won't happen to me if I just do everything right, if I just take every precaution.

I think it is important to state that I am very sympathetic to Voyeur's position that in far too many cases a female victim of assault is blamed. But I don't think any reasonable person suggests precautions for -- rare -- cases of assault by a stranger will prevent any and all cases of sexual assault. I've always understood these as pragmatic suggestions that frankly, could apply to both females and males. If young women hear these suggestions as Voyeur's has described, then the message clearly needs to change. For both males and females, there's nothing with being pragmatic when out and about. Especially when we are in vulnerable positions or places.

[Dwight]

I don’t think even JD or Rosebud knows the truth. They didn’t in the moment, and certainly not now so long after the fact of being able to reinterpret things with hindsight.

I am confused about JP being loose. I could have sworn Rosebud designated him as a spokesperson back when this new stuff was breaking, but maybe there is no communication anymore between them.

JP it is tired that you get to assume the worst in unrevealed information and we have to somehow prove that it might not be the worst case scenario for JD and best for Rosebud. I think if that were the case Rosebud would have dropped the information. It is the much more likely than your scenario. I’m not saying it we swing they other way to everything unrevealed would vindicate JD, I mean clearly he is going to release stuff that helps his case without hurting it, but that is true of both sides.

[Kishkumen]

I’m not sure what else to add to the above and to SV’s various statements, but perhaps another way to look at Rosebud’s experience with John Dehlin is in context to the life and culture she was raised in. I’m not attempting to diminish her choices she made as an adult, but I think we all can agree we’re all products of our childhoods, our relationships as we grow and develop, and the culture we experience on a daily basis.

A lot of what I see in Rosebud’s “regret” is in actuality a woman coming to terms with her process, what led her to that point, and the embedded psychological factors that contributed to the bad choices she made, the susceptibility to be coerced or talked into behaviors she initially resisted or didn’t enthusiastically desire, and the inevitable blowback she’d received for making her experiences with John Dehlin public in an effort to seek some form of justice for herself, perhaps some validation for her experiences, and as a warning to other women who similarly are in a vulnerable psychological and emotional states, and possibly even physical situations, that their lives conditioned them to be highly susceptible to suggestion in addition to being conditioned to please others.

And, I’m just being fair here, if John Dehlin was in a position where he was ‘life coaching’ others, or providing therapy to damaged and vulnerable folks coming out of Mormonism, he knew damn well what he was doing with and doing to Rosebud. You don’t accumulate that kind of experience with others, have that kind of education, both formal and informal, and not know if you’re manipulating a vulnerable soul. He stupid knew it. So, I’m putting that on him.

As far as Rosebud’s responsibilities go, we’ve hashed and rehashed them so I don’t feel the need to do it again. But, I think John Dehlin’s actions and motivations have been given too much of a pass, or at the very least haven’t been scrutinized as keenly as Rosebud’s have.

- Doc

Thanks for sharing that, DocCam. It is valuable, and yet I can't help but notice the tendency to view Rosebud in the context of childhood when it comes to her experience with Dehlin. Rosebud was, unless I am mistaken, a fully grown adult woman who was married and had children. And yet here the conversation once again imposes the circumstances of childhood upon her. Children are a lot more vulnerable than adults. When I was targeted, I was targeted as a kid. I was ignorant, unprotected, and unlikely to be believed. I recall pretty clearly the grooming that was aimed at me. Grooming is a term that is entirely appropriate when talking about adults exploiting minors, but I think much less so, if at all, for a conversation about two adults having an affair. I have seen it used a few times in this thread and in the wider discussion of Rosebud.

So, I think Rosebud deserves more sympathy because of the general Mormon ignorance about sex. On top of that I would place the culture of authority as another factor. The same kinds of problems also exist in other strict, authoritarian religious groups. Was she behind the curve on matters sexual and thus more apt to make mistakes? Yeah. Sure. And yet I don't see an innocent in "have sex with me, John Dehlin, it's what I need from you." How does that kind of stuff stack up against the 14 year old babysitter who is groped by a family man as he drops her off at her house?

Not very well, really.

Don't get me wrong. I do think this is important input. I just don't know how much weight to give it yet. I note that there is this tendency to treat Rosebud at times as though she were a child and JD was this big adult guy who was manipulating her. This distorts what I see in the documents I have examined. I see a very capable person trying to get what she wants from a sex parter and from a business relationship with Open Stories Foundation.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Kish,

I feel ya, and your post is of course sensible. However, I'd like to remind you there are a lot of dumb adults who make children. Sometimes it takes dummies like myself an actual experience in order to learn from it it - we're not clever enough to learn from others' mistakes. I just think that a lot of women have been "groomed" by our culture or society writ large with regard to many aspects of their identity that lends itself to giving in, or putting other people's desires before their own for approval, or being fearful, or falling into a gender trap or whatever. I can see Rosebud being raised in a way where she was relatively naïve to other men or even 'man world', having been married to an ostensible autist, and who knows how much interaction she had with men where she'd be afforded the opportunity to develop boundaries, prior to getting into it with JD? All I'm saying from her writing is that she's been conducting a sort of public after action review. I doubt the Rosebud now would allow herself to get involved with another Dehlin, because she appears to have learned some life lessons and thus gained wisdom. Rosebud back then versus Rosebud now, like all of us as we age and learn, are two different people.

I still think she needs to let go of the vendetta, though. But I think I understand what she's trying to do, even though she does it like a complete and utter moron.

- Doc

[consiglieri]

It would take a lot of time to ferret it out, but I would sure like to know how all of these conflicts and realignments came into being. How did KK pick up this hobby of sticking up for Rosebud? I know of her own beef with Dehlin, but what I don't know is how the connection with Rosebud was made. I had read somewhere that KK had invited Rosebud to participate in KK's appearance on the Kwaku show, but Rosebud declined. So, there was some communication. But what was the full extent of it?

The comment about being invited by KK to do the Kwaku interview was posted on the Facebook page of someone who goes by the name (I am still a dick) but who posts as if she were Rosebud.

Sort of like James Patterson.

[consiglieri]

On a related note, there seems to be a decided effort afoot to portray Rosebud as completely uninvolved in all the recent publicity given her cause by her defenders du jour.

Even James Patterson has fallen on his sword, proclaiming he has no contact with Rosebud; this after at least a hundred pages of pretending otherwise.

Is the his part of the plan, or are these people really running out to promote Rosebud’s cause with no direction from her?