The Evidence Thread

[_The CCC]

NHM can be used for a whole lot of different words.

That omnipotent and omniscient - and caring - god should have taught his chosen nation to write...


True, proper medical treatment is more important:

4. Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
5. And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water:
6. As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water:7. And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.

13. And he shall slay the lamb in the place where he shall kill the sin offering and the burnt offering, in the holy place: for as the sin offering is the priest's, so is the trespass offering: it is most holy:
14. And the priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and the priest shall put it upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot

(not a word about washing hands of the doctor)

If you want to credit God that is fine with me, but I never did so.

[_Themis]

Themis,
You didn't bring your A game this time. You're unfortunately the one that's not being sensible.

Whatever I am bringing it is certainly better then your post.

Saxons lived in...the region of Saxony.
Angles lived in....the region of Anglia.
Lombards lived in....the region of Lombardy.
Elves lived in....the region surrounding the Elbe.
Northumbrians lived in.....the region north of the Humber
Americans live in....America.
Canadians live in....Canada.
and so on, and so on...

Most Canadians also live in Americas. Most locations though don't have the name of the group that lives in the whole region.

So despite your assertion above, peoples/tribes have given their name to regions...and visa versa...for millennia.

Reading comprehension is a good thing. If you read my whole post, which is short, you will see I made no such assertion. I can be forgiving since you probably did not read other posts in relation to it where I quote the translation of of the Inscription in which NHM is used. Here it is again.

"Bi‘athtar, son of Sawad, son of Naw‘an, the Nihmite"

It is not saying the location is Nihmite. Only that the person who donated the alter is from that tribe. Again, even if the Book of Mormon was true and this site was Nahom, this inscription would not be evidence for the Book of Mormon location Nahom. It shouldn't be that hard to understand, but I also understand bias to have something can make you and CCC ignore the obvious.

[_Res Ipsa]

Hi CCC,

Given your social science background, how do studies in the social sciences treat the issue of chance/coincidence as an explanation of a specific result? In the hard sciences, the burden of proof is always placed on the experimenter to demonstrate that the experimental evidence is not caused by chance (to some specified level of certainty). Is it the same in the social sciences? Do you think this concept should apply to facts presented as evidence of the Book of Mormon's authenticity?

[_The CCC]

Hi CCC,

Given your social science background, how do studies in the social sciences treat the issue of chance/coincidence as an explanation of a specific result? In the hard sciences, the burden of proof is always placed on the experimenter to demonstrate that the experimental evidence is not caused by chance (to some specified level of certainty). Is it the same in the social sciences? Do you think this concept should apply to facts presented as evidence of the Book of Mormon's authenticity?

Chance and coincidence play a part but usually it is a very small part. In the social sciences we tend to use distribution curve diagrams. They usually fall into broad outlines of a bell shaped curve. IE; Average human intelligence is quantified at 100 with some 80% within 10 points either way. With increasing degrees of rarity as the extreme's are approached.

Because of issues of authorship the Book of Mormon is hard to quantify in a way that apologists and critics can agree. IE; Few argue that Jerusalem didn't exist anciently, but modern English only readers would have a hard time recognizing Bayt Al-Maqdis (بيت المقدس) as it.

To tie that in with the social sciences. It is possible that Joseph Smith in America of the 1820's knew all about the Saudi Arabian peninsula of 600 BCE. But like the IQ graph it would have been an interesting rarity.

[_Res Ipsa]

Hi CCC,

Given your social science background, how do studies in the social sciences treat the issue of chance/coincidence as an explanation of a specific result? In the hard sciences, the burden of proof is always placed on the experimenter to demonstrate that the experimental evidence is not caused by chance (to some specified level of certainty). Is it the same in the social sciences? Do you think this concept should apply to facts presented as evidence of the Book of Mormon's authenticity?

Chance and coincidence play a part but usually it is a very small part. In the social sciences we tend to use distribution curve diagrams. They usually fall into broad outlines of a bell shaped curve. IE; Average human intelligence is quantified at 100 with some 80% within 10 points either way. With increasing degrees of rarity as the extreme's are approached.

Because of issues of authorship the Book of Mormon is hard to quantify in a way that apologists and critics can agree. IE; Few argue that Jerusalem didn't exist anciently, but modern English only readers would have a hard time recognizing Bayt Al-Maqdis (بيت المقدس) as it.

To tie that in with the social sciences. It is possible that Joseph Smith in America of the 1820's knew all about the Saudi Arabian peninsula of 600 BCE. But like the IQ graph it would have been an interesting rarity.

The problem I have is that, from the reading I have done, the human brain is terrible at understanding and evaluating the role of chance in events. Thus, for me, it is entirely insufficient to just declare that something other than chance explains whatever similarities you want to assert between the description of events that occurs in the Book of Mormon and the geography of the Arabian peninsula. All I ever see from apologists on this issue is pure handwaving. Yet, we know from lots of research that the worst way to evaluate the role of chance is to rely on what our gut tells us about probabilities.

So, I maintain that, if you really want to discuss evidence seriously, any person claiming that the geography of the Arabian peninsula combined with the text of First Nephi is evidence for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon bears the burden of proof (however we want to quantify that) to show that the similarity is not coincidental. Or explainable by knowledge. Or some combination of the two (educated guess of some sort).

Lets start with this. Taking just the text of the First Nephi and looking at a map of the Arabian peninsula, what is the range of coastline that Lehi and his party could have reached?

[_The CCC]

I don't believe I've engaged in hand-waving. The facts remain that credible evidence has been presented that MHM and Bountiful exist. An educated guess is an interesting possibility, but I remain unconvinced. Because of two factors. (1)Thorough exploration by Europeans was still some ways off, and the Bedouins weren't exactly friendly to non-Muslims. (2) There is no indication that Joseph Smith was even aware of those locations. IE; Even his wife acknowledge that he didn't know Jerusalem was a walled city.

A likely route has been proposed, explored, and largely substantiates the description proffered in the Book of Mormon. There are spurs in the Frankincense Trail that come close to the coast, but were largely unknown to the West in the 1820's. Going Eastwards from NHM leads directly overland to Bountiful. There is no time frame mentioned in the Book of Mormon for the Lehites journey in the wilderness, but estimates vary for 3 to 7 years. More than enough time for such a journey even by the crude means of travel in that day.

[_Themis]

The facts remain that credible evidence has been presented that MHM and Bountiful exist.

You mean NHM, but you have not given any facts or credible evidence. I have shown NHM is a tribal name and that the inscription is not used as a place name. If you disagree show specifically how and why I am wrong. I have asked this but you went predictably silent. The word NHM is also not a likely candidate for Nahom.

[_ludwigm]

NMH? Some consonants does fit? (Does some consonants fit? I speak a different language...)
To be Hebrew:
d y cn rd ths wrds bv nd blw ?
--- and without words and punctuations?
Please translate "d y cn rd ths wrds bv nd blw". To normal English if I may ask...

Playing with names which sounds similar. No more.

In the 19 century in Hungary there were self-styled scholars who proved by similar means that every celebrity of the human history was Hungarian.
For example Tiglath-Pileser's name was really "téglát pazarol" (the meaning is brick wasting) because of his big royal palace...

English speakers can pronounce every vowel in any form they want, so that name-twisting method works better in that language.

by the way this type of pseudo science exists today, not only in Mormonism.
According to a certain Badiny Jós Ferenc (Francisco Jos Badiny), Jesus Christ did not belong to the Jewish nation, but instead he can be originated from the Parthian (Schytian‐Hun) ethnic group which was at the time present everywhere in Galilee.
The title of his book is "Jesus Christ the Parthian prince". Someway he was Hungarian.

See Sacred Characteristics of the Nation: Hungarianism as Political Religion (pdf)

[_Res Ipsa]

I don't believe I've engaged in hand-waving. The facts remain that credible evidence has been presented that MHM and Bountiful exist. An educated guess is an interesting possibility, but I remain unconvinced. Because of two factors. (1)Thorough exploration by Europeans was still some ways off, and the Bedouins weren't exactly friendly to non-Muslims. (2) There is no indication that Joseph Smith was even aware of those locations. IE; Even his wife acknowledge that he didn't know Jerusalem was a walled city.

A likely route has been proposed, explored, and largely substantiates the description proffered in the Book of Mormon. There are spurs in the Frankincense Trail that come close to the coast, but were largely unknown to the West in the 1820's. Going Eastwards from NHM leads directly overland to Bountiful. There is no time frame mentioned in the Book of Mormon for the Lehites journey in the wilderness, but estimates vary for 3 to 7 years. More than enough time for such a journey even by the crude means of travel in that day.

Actually, Nephi says they traveled for eight years before reaching Bountiful. Is there any location on the entire coast of the Arabian Peninsula that they could not have reached in eight years of travel?

[_I have a question]

I don't believe I've engaged in hand-waving. The facts remain that credible evidence has been presented that MHM and Bountiful exist. An educated guess is an interesting possibility, but I remain unconvinced. Because of two factors. (1)Thorough exploration by Europeans was still some ways off, and the Bedouins weren't exactly friendly to non-Muslims. (2) There is no indication that Joseph Smith was even aware of those locations. IE; Even his wife acknowledge that he didn't know Jerusalem was a walled city.

A likely route has been proposed, explored, and largely substantiates the description proffered in the Book of Mormon. There are spurs in the Frankincense Trail that come close to the coast, but were largely unknown to the West in the 1820's. Going Eastwards from NHM leads directly overland to Bountiful. There is no time frame mentioned in the Book of Mormon for the Lehites journey in the wilderness, but estimates vary for 3 to 7 years. More than enough time for such a journey even by the crude means of travel in that day.

Actually, Nephi says they traveled for eight years before reaching Bountiful. Is there any location on the entire coast of the Arabian Peninsula that they could not have reached in eight years of travel?

If we assume travel at 4 miles an hour for five hours a day, with weekends off for resting, they could have travelled 100 miles a week. That's 5,000 miles a year, assuming they got Christmas holidays. 8 years - 40,000 miles. If all they did was reach some place on the Arabian peninsula then they must have done some serious wandering around in circles. Or alternatively, the author was making stuff up.