EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

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_The CCC
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Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _The CCC »

Tobin wrote:
The CCC wrote:SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Global Warming is an established fact.
http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/


Again, would you like me to quote what Gunnar said? His argument is classic Ad Populum Argument. He claims we must believe a majority of climatologists because they are the majority and for NO OTHER REASON. Read that link you just read. What does it say about that?


That the vast majority(97%+) of climate scientists agree that Global Warming is real, and that man is the primary cause is not an Ad Populum Argument.The Ad Populum Argument is that it is true, just because 97%+ of climate scientist say it is.
_Tobin
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Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _Tobin »

Just for the bozos out there (i.e. Brad) -

Scientific consensus is built upon a foundation of logic and a systematic preponderance of the evidence gathered using valid scientific methods rather than popular prejudice. Since bozos (i.e. Brad) don't know the difference, I thought I'd spell it out for them.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Themis
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Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _Themis »

Res Ipsa wrote:Here, Tobin commits a fallacious attempt to shift the burden of proof. He made the claim that Gunnar is committing the Ad Populum fallacy. It is his burden to explain why the fallacy applies.


I have noticed a few others do this as well. It is the lazy man's way of trying to make a claim, and then think it is everyone else's responsibility to prove it wrong. The problem is there are many posters willing to do just that as we have seen in this thread.
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_Tobin
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Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _Tobin »

The CCC wrote:That the vast majority(97%+) of climate scientists agree that Global Warming is real, and that man is the primary cause is not an Ad Populum Argument.The Ad Populum Argument is that it is true, just because 97%+ of climate scientist say it is.
Of course it is. Why mention that 97% of anything agrees if it isn't Argumentum ad populum? For example, I could claim that 97% of people agree that you are a bozo and that you are the primary cause of stupidity in the world. Would that make my claim legitimate?
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Themis
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Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _Themis »

Tobin wrote:Just for the bozos out there (i.e. Brad) -

Scientific consensus is built upon a foundation of logic and a systematic preponderance of the evidence gathered using valid scientific methods rather than popular prejudice. Since bozos (i.e. Brad) don't know the difference, I thought I'd spell it out for them.


And can anyone point to where tobin has provided any scientific consensus regarding his claims that have been challenged here? This really is one of tobin's biggest problems in having a real discussion.
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_Res Ipsa
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Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Tobin wrote:Just for the bozos out there (i.e. Brad) -

Scientific consensus is built upon a foundation of logic and a systematic preponderance of the evidence gathered using valid scientific methods rather than popular prejudice. Since bozos (i.e. Brad) don't know the difference, I thought I'd spell it out for them.


I think it's pretty clear which one of us actually knows the difference. :rolleyes:
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_EAllusion
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Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _EAllusion »

Every single fact discussed in this thread is only trusted because it is established via implied scientific consensus. No one here is personally building equipment to measure the constitution of the atmosphere and reporting their findings. Citing what the majority of relevant experts think is not argument ad populum as a fallacy insofar as expertise is being used as a heuristic to determine what likely is the case. Argument ad populum is when you argue that something is true because it is popular to think. That is distinct from arguing that something is likely to be the case if a particular group of authorities think so. The former is fallacious; we couldn't function without the later. Almost every scientific fact someone knows and cites is built upon the implicit trust in the community of scientists and how they build reliable knowledge through agreement on methods and facts.
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Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _Tobin »

EAllusion wrote:Every single fact discussed in this thread is only trusted because it is established via implied scientific consensus. No one here is personally building equipment to measure the constitution of the atmosphere and reporting their findings. Citing what the majority of relevant experts think is not argument ad populum as a fantasy insofar as expertise is being used as a heuristic to determine what likely is the case. Argument ad populum is when you argue that something is true because it is popular to think. That is distinct from arguing that something is likely to be the case if a particular group of authorities think so. The former is fallacious; we couldn't function without the later. Almost every scientific fact someone knows and cites is built upon the implicit trust in the community of scientists and how they build reliable knowledge through agreement on methods and facts.
That's ridiculous. Facts aren't trusted because "it is established via implied scientific consensus". Facts are trusted because they can't be reasonably disputed.

For example, it is a fact I exist and am typing this. There has never been a scientific consensus to establish that as a fact.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _Gunnar »

Tobin wrote:
The CCC wrote:SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Global Warming is an established fact.
http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
Again, would you like me to quote what Gunnar said? His argument is classic Ad Populum Argument. He claims we must believe a majority of climatologists because they are the majority and for NO OTHER REASON. Read that link you just read. What does it say about that?

No. Not just because they are in the majority. It is because the results they got when examining the same evidence and doing the same experiments were consistently repeatable and led to the same conclusions, just as with any other well established scientific theory like evolution, Boyle's law, the theory of relativity, quantum theory, atomic theory and the heliocentric solar system. It was based on actually looking at the evidence (which you consistently refuse to do) and honestly evaluating it.

These scientists are people who have dedicated their careers and their lives to figuring out the dynamics of climate, including how the atmosphere, oceans, landmasses, biosphere and all other relevant factors (including human activities) interact with each other to produce and influence climate, which you obviously haven't done yourself and have very little clue about. That anyone should take your word over what they say is beyond ludicrous.

What evidence or argument can you possibly cite contrary to their conclusions that does not in itself rely on the testimony of others whom you regard as qualified authorities? And why do those who dispute the realities of climate change constitute a minuscule and still shrinking minority, if they are right?

If you experienced severe abdominal pains, and several qualified M.D.s, including your primary doctor and gastroenterologists with whom he consulted agreed that you have acute appendicitis and need an appendectomy, would you accept their verdict, or would you rather take the word of your favorite highly qualified auto mechanic or psychiatrist (or worse yet a priest or clergyman) that you have only a temporary condition that will go away on its own, or that it is just in your head?
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

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_The CCC
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Re: EXXON Contradicts its Own Scientists

Post by _The CCC »

Gunnar:

One small disagreement. Psychiatrists are medical doctors who specialize in diseases of the mind. So while I wouldn't necessarily go to a podiatrist for the treatment of a head cold. They'd know enough general medicine to point me in the right direction. :smile:
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