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[Guest]

Jeremiah 26:1-24

Early in the rule Judah’s King and Josiah’s son Jehoiakim, this word came from the Lord:

Proclaim while standing in the temple courtyard and speak to all the people of the towns of Judah who come to the temple to worship. Tell them everything I command you -- withhold nothing.

Perhaps they will listen and will turn from their evil ways. If they do, I will relent and not carry out the harm I have in mind for them because of the wrong they have done.

Tell them, if they don’t listen to Me or follow the Instruction I have set before them—

if they don’t listen to the words of the prophets that I have sent to them over and over again (seeing you haven’t listened),

then I will make this temple a ruin like Shiloh, and this city I will make a curse before all countries on earth.

The priests, the prophets, and all the people heard Jeremiah declare these words in the Lord’s temple.

And when Jeremiah finished saying everything the Lord told him to say, the priests and the prophets and all the people grabbed him and said, “You are going to die!

Why would you prophesy in the Lord’s name that ‘this temple will become a ruin like Shiloh, and this city will be destroyed and left without inhabitant’?” Then all the people agreed against Jeremiah in the Lord’s temple.

When the officials of Judah heard these things, they went up from the royal palace to the Lord’s temple and took their places at the entrance of the New Gate to the Lord’s temple.

The priests and the prophets said to the officials and all the people: “This man deserves to die for prophesying against this city as you have all heard firsthand.”

Jeremiah said to all the officials and to all the people, “The Lord sent me to speak in this temple and this city everything you heard.

So now reform your attitude and actions. Obey the Lord your God, and the Lord may relent and not carry out the harm that He’s pronounced against you.

But me? I’m in your hands. Do whatever you would like to me.

But realize this, that if you sentence me to death, you and the people of this city will be guilty of murdering an innocent man. The Lord has in fact sent me to speak everything I stated to you.”

Then the officials and all the people said to the priests and the prophets, “This man doesn’t deserve to die, for he has spoken to us in God's name.” A few of the community elders got up and addressed the whole crowd:

“Micah from Moresheth, prophesied during the time of rule of Judah’s Hezekiah, and proclaimed to all the people of Judah, ‘The Lord of heavenly forces proclaims:

Zion will be plowed through like a field, Jerusalem will become piles of rubble, and the temple mount will become an overgrown heap.’

“Did King Hezekiah or anyone else in Judah execute him? Didn’t he instead fear the Lord and plead for his mercy? Then the Lord relented of the harm that he had pronounced against them. We are about to commit a huge mistake that will cost us our lives.”

There was another man who prophesied in the Lord’s name: Shemaiah’s son Uriah, from Kiriath-jearim. He prophesied the same things that Jeremiah did about this city and against this country. When King Jehoiakim and all his warriors and officials heard his words, the king sought to murder him. Uriah heard of this and fled in fear to Egypt.

But King Jehoiakim sent Achbor’s son, Elnathan, plus others to Egypt.

They brought Uriah back from Egypt to the king who had him killed, and his body was thrown into the common burial ground.

But Shaphan’s son, Ahikam, protected Jeremiah and wouldn’t let the people execute him.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim son of Josiah, king of Judah, hath this word been from Jehovah, saying:

2 `Thus said Jehovah, Stand thou in the court of the house of Jehovah, and thou hast spoken unto all [those of] the cities of Judah who are coming in to bow themselves in the house of Jehovah, all the words that I have commanded thee to speak unto them, thou dost not diminish a word.

3 If so be they hearken, and turn back each from his evil way, then I have repented concerning the evil that I am thinking of doing to them, because of the evil of their doings.

4 `And thou hast said unto them: Thus said Jehovah, If ye do not hearken unto Me, to walk in My law, that I set before you,

5 To hearken to the words of My servants the prophets, whom I am sending unto you, yea, rising early and sending, and ye have not hearkened,

6 Then I have given up this house as Shiloh, and this city I give up for a reviling to all nations of the earth.'

7 And the priests, and the prophets, and all the people, hear Jeremiah speaking these words in the house of Jehovah,

8 And it cometh to pass, at the completion of Jeremiah's speaking all that Jehovah hath commanded him to speak unto all the people, that the priests, and the prophets, and all the people catch him, saying, Thou dost surely die,

9 Wherefore hast thou prophesied in the name of Jehovah, saying, `As Shiloh this house shall be, and this city is wasted, without inhabitant?' and all the people are assembled unto Jeremiah in the house of Jehovah.

10 And the heads of Judah hear these things, and they go up from the house of the king [to] the house of Jehovah, and sit in the opening of the new gate of Jehovah.

11 And the priests and the prophets speak unto the heads, and unto all the people, saying, `Judgment of death [is] for this man, for he hath prophesied against this city, as ye have heard with your ears.'

12 And Jeremiah speaketh unto all the heads, and unto all the people, saying, `Jehovah sent me to prophesy concerning this house, and concerning this city, all the words that ye have heard;

13 And now, amend your ways, and your doings, and hearken to the voice of Jehovah your God, and Jehovah doth repent concerning the evil that He hath spoken against you.

14 `And I, lo, I [am] in your hand, do to me as is good and as is right in your eyes;

15 Only, know ye certainly, that if ye are putting me to death, surely innocent blood ye are putting on yourselves, and on this city, and on its inhabitants; for truly hath Jehovah sent me unto you to speak in your ears all these words.'

16 And the heads and all the people say unto the priests and unto the prophets, `There is not for this man a judgment of death, for in the name of Jehovah our God he hath spoken unto us.'

17 And certain of the elders of the land rise up, and speak unto all the assembly of the people, saying,

18 `Micah the Morashtite hath been prophesying in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and he saith unto all the people of Judah, saying: Thus said Jehovah of Hosts: Zion is a plowed field, and Jerusalem is heaps, And the mountain of the house is for high places of a forest.

19 `Put him at all to death did Hezekiah king of Judah, and all Judah? Did he not fear Jehovah? yea, he appeaseth the face of Jehovah, and Jehovah repenteth concerning the evil that He spake against them; and we are doing great evil against our souls.

20 `And also there hath been a man prophesying in the name of Jehovah, Urijah son of Shemaiah, of Kirjath-Jearim, and he prophesieth against this city, and against this land according to all the words of Jeremiah,

21 And the king Jehoiakim, and all his mighty ones, and all the heads, hear his words, and the king seeketh to put him to death, and Urijah heareth, and feareth, and fleeth, and goeth in to Egypt.

22 And the king Jehoiakim sendeth men to Egypt -- Elnathan son of Achbor, and men with him unto Egypt --

23 And they bring out Urijah from Egypt, and bring him in unto the king Jehoiakim, and he smiteth him with a sword, and casteth his corpse unto the graves of the sons of the people.'

24 Only, the hand of Ahikam son of Shaphan hath been with Jeremiah so as not to give him up into the hand of the people to put him to death.

[_Gunnar]

Let me make an explain! God created light and then created a source. And if it takes 10 thousand to 150 thousand years for the sun to release its energy (a very broad spectrum of imagined time I might add) then God obviously created the sun at the stage it would start releasing that energy. My God is good at such things. He likely created Adam a 30 year old man the day Adam was created. I see absolutely no possible reason God could not create our sun at the brink of 10 thousand to 150 thousand years of energy release to suit your perception. Prior to this God Himself was the light of the world and I see nothing you can deny in that regard other than simply reject it outright. And that is YOUR prerogative and not my shortcoming.

Neither can you deny or disprove any possibility of Bertrand Russell's teapot, but that would be an absurd justification for believing in its reality. If anything, your argument about how the sun's light might or could have existed before the very source of that light came into existence is even more absurd and improbable than Russell's teapot! That you believe that nonsense with no better justification than your interpretation of the words in a compilation of ancient writings written thousands of years ago by primitive Iron Age peoples who could not have known any better is a very serious shortcoming on your part!

Besides that, If God himself was the actual source of that light, why was it even necessary to create the sun in the first place?

[_spotlight]

Besides that, If God himself was the actual source of that light, why was it even necessary to create the sun in the first place?

He likes to give his filament a rest to keep it within warranty.

[_spotlight]

And if it takes 10 thousand to 150 thousand years for the sun to release its energy (a very broad spectrum of imagined time I might add)

Thanks LittleNipper,

This confirms my suspicion that you are without the least bit of scientific education otherwise you'd at least have heard of random walk phenomena and be aware that although such behavior results in a curve that possesses an average as all curves do, it is a curve that is very flat and spread out as there can be huge differences between the time it takes to move away from the starting location in a random walk.

In consideration of your total lack of understanding of scientific topics it is a wonder that you try to make use of science to defend creationism in the first place. Inevitably you are beaten back, as all creationists are, to having to assert the creation with age defense which as I've shown is disproved by what has been revealed from our ability to sequence DNA.

Why not just declare your faith in your variety of magical thinking and leave it at that? Why the need to hide behind pseudoscience? What do you suppose it adds to the legitimacy of your POV? It adds nothing at all, but in fact sinks your credibility far lower than it would be without the made up nonsense.

[_Gunnar]

Besides that, If God himself was the actual source of that light, why was it even necessary to create the sun in the first place?

He likes to give his filament a rest to keep it within warranty.

Or maybe he found it necessary to create some alternate source of light so he could dim himself enough during his interactions with mankind to avoid burning them to a crisp or vaporizing them.

[_LittleNipper]

Let me make an explain! God created light and then created a source. And if it takes 10 thousand to 150 thousand years for the sun to release its energy (a very broad spectrum of imagined time I might add) then God obviously created the sun at the stage it would start releasing that energy. My God is good at such things. He likely created Adam a 30 year old man the day Adam was created. I see absolutely no possible reason God could not create our sun at the brink of 10 thousand to 150 thousand years of energy release to suit your perception. Prior to this God Himself was the light of the world and I see nothing you can deny in that regard other than simply reject it outright. And that is YOUR prerogative and not my shortcoming.

Neither can you deny or disprove any possibility of Bertrand Russell's teapot, but that would be an absurd justification for believing in its reality. If anything, your argument about how the sun's light might or could have existed before the very source of that light came into existence is even more absurd and improbable than Russell's teapot! That you believe that nonsense with no better justification than your interpretation of the words in a compilation of ancient writings written thousands of years ago by primitive Iron Age peoples who could not have known any better is a very serious shortcoming on your part!

Besides that, If God himself was the actual source of that light, why was it even necessary to create the sun in the first place?

God is the source of LIFE --- so why create life? It simply God's prerogative. If you don't wish to believe in God --- don't! But don't try to fault an unbelief in an Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient God. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having doubts. Doubting in a sinful world is how we learn, reaffirm and have a talk with God. As for primitive people, we can realize that the sophisticated civilizations of Egypt, Greece, and Roman totally missed the boat with their fake gods and goddesses that mimicked the lusts of frail humans only as "superhuman." And that God chose to reveal Himself to common people.

[_Gunnar]

It is not a matter of what I wish to believe or not to believe. It is a matter of what can be verified and makes sense in the light of evidence and sound reason. Citing the ancient writings of Iron Age religious charlatans and fanatics does not even come close to constituting credible evidence and sound reason. Why are you so confident of the veracity of ancient Hebrews? Their religious ideas and myths are not even original with them but borrowed from even more ancient peoples and religious traditions, mainly but not limited to the Zoroastrianism originated by the Persians who conquered the Hebrews.

[_LittleNipper]

If that is the case, science has been unable to provide the exact age of the earth. Science has been unable to demonstrate how biological life can be created. Scientific method has been unable to prove that there is no GOD. Scientific research has not with absolute assurance proven that there was never a World Wide Flood. Science investigation has never absolutely shown that all living creatures originated from one common ancestor.

Without absolute proof that can be replicated, scientific fact is not an honest tool for undermining faith --- in fact, it become faith to those who selectively study science for determining other probabilities aside from God.

[Guest]

Jeremiah 27:1-21

At the start of Zedekiah the son of Josiah, king of Judah's reign, the Lord spoke to Jeremiah:

The Lord said, "Make bonds and yokes and put them about your neck.

Send them to the king of Edom, the king of Moab, the king of the Ammonites, the king of Tyre, and to the king of Sidon, by the hand of the messengers who arrived at Jerusalem for Zedekiah king of Judah.

Command them to return to their masters, saying: The Lord of Hosts, God of Israel wants you to tell your masters that I made the earth, men, the beasts which are on the ground through My great power and with My outstretched arm, and have given it to whomever it pleases Me.

Now I have given all these lands over to the hand of Nebuchadnezzar my servant king of Babylon. And also I have given to him the beasts of the field to serve him.

All nations shall serve him and his son and his son’s son until the time of his own comeuppance arrives; and then many nations and great kings will in turn make him their slave.

It shall be that I will punish the nation and kingdom which chooses not to serve king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, and which will not put their neck under the yoke of that Babylon ruler, says the Lord. I will punish that nation with the sword, famine, and pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand.

Disregard your prophets, diviners, dreamers, enchanters, and sorcerers who inform you, saying, “You shall not serve the king of Babylon.”

They prophesy a lie to you in order to separate you far from your land. And I will drive you out, and you shall die.

But the nations that bring their neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him, those I will let remain in their own land, and they shall farm and reside there.

I spoke also to Zedekiah king of Judah according to all these words, saying: Bring your necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him and his people, and survive.

Why would you and your people die by the sword, famine, and pestilence, as the Lord has pronounced against the nation that will not serve the king of Babylon?

Do not listen to the words of the prophets who speak to you, saying, “You will not serve the king of Babylon,” because they are lying.

For I have not sent them, says the Lord, yet they lie in My name, so that I might drive you out and that you might die, you and the prophets that prophesy to you.

I also spoke to the priests and to all this people, "So says the Lord --- Do not listen to the words of your prophets saying, “The vessels of the house of the Lord will now soon be returned from Babylon.” For this is but a lie.

Do not listen to them; serve the king of Babylon, and live. Why should this city be destroyed?

But if the prophets, and the word of the Lord is with them, let them now beg the Lord of Hosts, that the vessels which are left in the temple of the Lord and in the palace of the king of Judah in Jerusalem not go to Babylon.

The Lord of Hosts concerning the pillars, and concerning the sea, and concerning the bases, and concerning the rest of the vessels that remain in this city,

which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon did not take when he carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah from Jerusalem to Babylon, and all the nobles of Judah and Jerusalem.

Without a doubt, says the Lord of Hosts, God of Israel, concerning the vessels that remain in the house of the Lord and in the house of the king of Judah and in Jerusalem:

They will be removed to Babylon and they will be there until the day that I come for them, says the Lord. Then I will bring them out and restore them to this place."


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim son of Josiah, king of Judah, hath this word been unto Jeremiah from Jehovah, saying,

2 `Thus said Jehovah unto me, Make to thee bands and yokes,

3 And thou hast put them on thy neck, and hast sent them unto the king of Edom, and unto the king of Moab, and unto the king of the sons of Ammon, and unto the king of Tyre, and unto the king of Zidon, by the hand of messengers who are coming in to Jerusalem, unto Zedekiah king of Judah;

4 And thou hast commanded them for their lords, saying, Thus said Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel,

5 Thus do ye say unto your lords, I -- I have made the earth with man, and the cattle that [are] on the face of the earth, by My great power, and by My stretched-out arm, and I have given it to whom it hath been right in Mine eyes.

6 `And now, I -- I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, My servant, and also the beast of the field I have given to him to serve him;

7 And served him have all the nations, and his son, and his son's son, till the coming in of the time of his land, also it; and done service for him have many nations and great kings.

8 And it hath come to pass, the nation and the kingdom that do not serve him -- Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon -- and that which putteth not its neck into the yoke of the king of Babylon, with sword, and with famine, and with pestilence, I lay a charge on that nation -- an affirmation of Jehovah -- till I consume them by his hand.

9 `And ye, ye do not hearken unto your prophets, and unto your diviners, and unto your dreamers, and unto your observers of clouds, and unto your sorcerers who are speaking unto you, saying, Ye do not serve the king of Babylon, --

10 For falsehood they are prophesying to you, so as to remove you far from off your ground, and I have driven you out, and ye have perished.

11 And the nation that causeth its neck to enter into the yoke of the king of Babylon, and hath served him -- I have left it on its ground -- an affirmation of Jehovah -- and it hath tilled it, and dwelt in it.'

12 And unto Zedekiah king of Judah I have spoken according to all these words, saying, `Cause your necks to enter into the yoke of the king of Babylon, and serve him and his people, and live.

13 Why do ye die, thou and thy people, by sword, by famine, and by pestilence, as Jehovah hath spoken concerning the nation that doth not serve the king of Babylon?

14 `And ye do not hearken unto the words of the prophets who are speaking unto you, saying, Ye do not serve the king of Babylon, -- for falsehood they are prophesying to you.

15 For I have not sent them -- an affirmation of Jehovah -- and they are prophesying in My name falsely, so as to drive you out, and ye have perished, ye, and the prophets who are prophesying to you.'

16 And unto the priests, and unto all this people, I have spoken, saying, `Thus said Jehovah, Ye do not hearken unto the words of your prophets, who are prophesying to you, saying, Lo, the vessels of the house of Jehovah are brought back from Babylon now in haste, for falsehood they are prophesying to you.

17 Ye do not hearken unto them, serve the king of Babylon, and live. Why is this city a waste?

18 `And, if they be prophets, and if a word of Jehovah be with them, let them intercede, I pray you, with Jehovah of Hosts, so that the vessels that are left in the house of Jehovah, and [in] the house of the king of Judah, and in Jerusalem, have not gone into Babylon.

19 For thus said Jehovah of Hosts concerning the pillars, and concerning the sea, and concerning the bases, and concerning the rest of the vessels that are left in this city,

20 That Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon hath not taken, in his removing Jeconiah son of Jehoiakim king of Judah from Jerusalem to Babylon with all the freemen of Judah and Jerusalem,

21 Surely thus said Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel, concerning the vessels that are left of the house of Jehovah, and of the house of the king of Judah, and [in] Jerusalem:

22 To Babylon they are brought, and there they are till the day of My inspecting them -- an affirmation of Jehovah; then I have brought them up, and have brought them back unto this place.'

[_spotlight]

If that is the case, science has been unable to provide the exact age of the earth.

As exact as the measuring device allows. Error bars are a reality of all measurement. Just because there are error bars when you hang a painting on your wall does not mean it isn't hanging 5 ft off the floor. Well is it exactly 5ft or is it 5ft and an angstrom? Well if you can't answer that then it must be reasonable to assert that it is really only an inch above the floor. Does that logic fail sound familiar?

Science has been unable to demonstrate how biological life can be created.

A god of the gaps argument is a logical fallacy. Besides Szostak has answered most of it to the thinking of reasonable minds.
http://molbio.mgh.harvard.edu/szostakwe ... tions.html

Scientific method has been unable to prove that there is no GOD.

Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa).

Scientific research has not with absolute assurance proven that there was never a World Wide Flood.

Yes it has. The fact that there are creationists that disagree with this is no more relevant than the fact that there are flat earthers who disagree with the fact that the earth is a spheroid.

Science investigation has never absolutely shown that all living creatures originated from one common ancestor.

Yes it has to an exponent of certainty now in the thousands. Again the fact that there are creationists that disagree with this is no more relevant than the fact that there are flat earthers who disagree with the fact that the earth is a spheroid.

Without absolute proof that can be replicated, scientific fact is not an honest tool for undermining faith --- in fact, it become faith to those who selectively study science for determining other probabilities aside from God.

Science does not deal in proof. But it does deal with evidence and that which can be replicated. Inference is allowed as well though you have motivation to vote that out of science. Science pays no mind to faith. And finding other probabilities aside from God is no more a motivation behind the scientific enterprise than finding other probabilities aside from Voodoo, Odin or the deities of the Aboriginal Australians.

Your faith is not special so stop with your special pleading.