Skousen's Introduction to Book of Mormon

[_mentalgymnast]

Here's what mentalgymnast actually said here in this thread:

The fact is, we can be fairly certain that Jenkins is biased and/or prejudiced.

He was lambasted over that, not over a comment similar to Hale's.

Here's what I said in context:

Do biases and/or prejudices stand out right on someone's chest like a scarlet letter? Are they always going to be readily accessible to an 'outsider' to the internal world of the one who is biased and/or prejudiced?

The fact is, we can be fairly certain that Jenkins is biased and/or prejudiced. He will probably not be willing...or even able...to tell/explain those biases/prejudices to you. They're built up over a lifetime. We/he may not even be fully aware of what those biases/prejudices might be...or at least fully be able to articulate what they are, or are not.

This is to be correlated with another post I made:

I followed each 'back and forth' while it was going on. It was over on Patheos wasn't it? Don't ask me to remember much of what I read.

Everyone is biased and/or prejudiced.

http://archive.boston.com/news/science/ ... /blog.html

Prejudice is the process of making decision or judging something with a premature mind and making your own facts instead of knowing the real truth about a person or a thing. Bias can be referred to as a process where you prefer one thing over another thing. Prejudice is the word used to refer to something that you hate completely. Bias can be referred to as a prejudice in some specific sense. This is the priority that you feel about one thing as compared to other.

You are saying that Philip Jenkins isn't either one or both?
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41859&start=126

Context. My point is that everyone is biased in some respects. To say that Jenkins is also biased/prejudiced would simply be stating what is a fact for all of us. Of course the million dollar question is whether or not he has any biased opinions on Christianity...number one...and on Mormonism...number two. In my mind the answers to these two questions would possibly have a direct bearing on his objectivity. That's why I was trying to get a feel from others as to his personal beliefs in regards to Jesus as Savior and if he was a practicing Christian. Folks said that didn't matter one way or the other and asked for 'proof' that he wasn't totally objective and without bias as he went back and forth with Hamblin.

That's going to be hard to do admittedly. I'll concede that point.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Why are you not willing to consider Phillip Jenkins?

I just did.

If everyone's thoughts are dismissed because they "have bias," not based on the strength of their rationale, nothing ever would get discussed--let alone resolved.

I agree. But OTOH, I think that knowing that folks are biased and are not able to be fully objective as a result ought to give us reason to question motives, etc.

And it goes both ways, I realize that.

Regards,
MG

[_Dr Exiled]

MG:

If I argue that gravity doesn't exist or that the earth is flat and then say that, well, everyone has biases, and maybe those who claim otherwise are simply biased, am I not being disingenuous? Sure people are biased, however, at a certain point, reality sets in, no?

[_mentalgymnast]

To believe in and plant the Book of Mormon in the soil of 'God's word' is a choice.

Why should we choose to believe if we don't know?

That's actually a very good question. I don't know that I can answer it without a default to the position that Faith...first principle of the Gospel...is somehow integral to our progression.

But I've said over and over again throughout these threads that I think there are reasons...at least there are for me...to adhere to and give the benefit of a doubt to the message/mission of the LDS Church and its foundational scripture, the Book of Mormon.

You said that I "[put] most of the Book of Mormon on the shelf."

Not sure what you mean by that. I read the Book of Mormon frequently. Yes, I have questions/issues in regards to the Book of Mormon. But that doesn't mean that I literally leave it up on the shelf. I hope to gain further light and knowledge as time goes on. I can't do that if the Book of Mormon gets dusty.

Regards,
MG

[_Lemmie]

I think the evidence may show otherwise. If I said exactly what you're saying here, then I think I was mistaken. But I don't think I said this. Lemmie, I'm sure, will dig up whether I did or not and somehow bring it back around to being "intellectually dishonest".

Well, Maks called it, you really cannot stop yourself from the dishonest rewrites, can you?

Yes, I 'somehow bring it back around' to intellectual dishonesty when you are caught being intellectually dishonest. It must be so irritating to have your dishonesty commented on! One alternative would be to stop lying, but that's going to be tough, given how much of the Book of Mormon you have packed away on that shelf.

[_mentalgymnast]

MG:

If I argue that gravity doesn't exist or that the earth is flat and then say that, well, everyone has biases, and maybe those who claim otherwise are simply biased, am I not being disingenuous? Sure people are biased, however, at a certain point, reality sets in, no?

But when it comes to something having to do with whether God exists or not and one chooses the latter, is the person that has that particular bias going to be completely objective when it comes to discussing spiritual/religious things? And yes, I know it works both ways in regards to belief in God also creating its own set of biases.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

I think the evidence may show otherwise. If I said exactly what you're saying here, then I think I was mistaken. But I don't think I said this. Lemmie, I'm sure, will dig up whether I did or not and somehow bring it back around to being "intellectually dishonest".

Well, Maks called it, you really cannot stop yourself from the dishonest rewrites, can you?

Yes, I 'somehow bring it back around' to intellectual dishonesty when you are caught being intellectually dishonest. It must be so irritating to have your dishonesty commented on! One alternative would be to stop lying, but that's going to be tough, given how much of the Book of Mormon you have packed away on that shelf.

Hi Lemmie,

Always nice to have you jump in. Thanks for your thoughtful contribution. Not really much to comment on, however. Been there done that.

Moving on...

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Why should we choose to believe if we don't know?

That's actually a very good question. I don't know that I can answer it without a default to the position that Faith...first principle of the Gospel...is somehow integral to our progression.

Faith/hope is a choice. I do agree, however, that faith should not be misplaced.

http://www.mormonchannel.org/watch/seri ... _xLIDyI-1_

Regards,
MG

[_spotlight]

Except that faith did not lead to progression for me. It led to ignorance and mental blocks. Once I freed myself from faith in the LDS church I was able to make progress. Hoping for Santa to be real may keep the smiles on the faces of children, but it has some drawbacks.

[_Themis]

That's actually a very good question. I don't know that I can answer it without a default to the position that Faith...first principle of the Gospel...is somehow integral to our progression.

You don't know that. God has never told you. Some person told you God wants this. You don't even know God exists. You just been told by people that he does. You are not trusting God in your faith, but trusting what a person or persons told you to believe. You somehow seem to miss this.

But I've said over and over again throughout these threads that I think there are reasons...at least there are for me...to adhere to and give the benefit of a doubt to the message/mission of the LDS Church and its foundational scripture, the Book of Mormon.

You claim reasons, but they cannot be that good if you cannot articulate them. You give the benefit of any doubt to what you want and hope is true. No different then some FLDS person or someone in Scientology, Islam, etc. You seem to miss the implications of what this means.

You said that I "[put] most of the Book of Mormon on the shelf."

Not sure what you mean by that. I read the Book of Mormon frequently. Yes, I have questions/issues in regards to the Book of Mormon. But that doesn't mean that I literally leave it up on the shelf. I hope to gain further light and knowledge as time goes on. I can't do that if the Book of Mormon gets dusty.

You put on the shelf every problem of the Book of Mormon that shows Joseph made it up. You especially do this with the Book of Abraham which is a smoking gun that Joseph was making it up. He claims to translate. We know the hieroglyphs he claimed to translate. He gets caught pretending all the time and was a conman even before the Book of Mormon. One has to put these on the shelf and ignore them if they want to convince themselves to believe.