New Book of Abraham Research Group

[_I have a question]

Ed, you just threw Joseph Smith under the bus.

[_Themis]

You have little chance of getting close to the truth when you have already made certain conclusions that cannot be questioned before you even look at the facts. Might make you feel good though.

Well, here is the problem. Yes, admittedly, it makes me feel good, that is, I feel good about the fact that I do what I do because I have come to my conclusions about Mormonism based on the Holy Ghost. Now, you do have the right to question. But by the nature of what I do, I am at a disadvantage. My starting point of my epistemology is based on evidence that some of you do not accept, and that starting point is not negotiable. That evidence is internal, in my soul. To some of you that is delusion. Fair enough, but that is how it has to be. My information provides a service to those similar to myself that do not believe that a testimony from the Holy Ghost is delusion. I can't prove to you objectively or with empiricism that my internal testimony is not delusion. And I didn't come here with that intent anyway.

I am not asking you to prove it to me. Your problem is you cannot prove it to yourself in any objective way. You have not been able to show even yourself why your sensations are more likely to come from some unseen being then from yourself. People have the same experiences all over the world and how they interpret them is usually based on their world view. The evidence for the Book of Abraham are much more objective and they tell us Joseph was making things up. It's so bad no one has been able to convince, based on all the evidence of the Book of Abraham, to convince them Joseph was not making it up. Then add all those members, who are biased for the church and have interpreted their sensations in favor of the church's truth claims, who have had to admit Joseph was making it up. The evidence is very one-sided. It's at this point one may be less biased in viewing the evidence of both the physical and internal sensations. Many members cannot remove enough bias to see more clearly.

[_Themis]

Ed, you just threw Joseph Smith under the bus.

Actually he throws Joseph and God under the bus. I call it the Joseph and God dumb and dumber theory. Joseph has to be dumb to make so many statements about the papyri including providing specific translations of specific hieroglyphs. God has to be dumber to go along with it, or worse if one wants to suggest he is deceiving Joseph about the papyri.

[_EdGoble]

I am not asking you to prove it to me. Your problem is you cannot prove it to yourself in any objective way. You have not been able to show even yourself why your sensations are more likely to come from some unseen being then from yourself. People have the same experiences all over the world and how they interpret them is usually based on their world view. The evidence for the Book of Abraham are much more objective and they tell us Joseph was making things up. It's so bad no one has been able to convince, based on all the evidence of the Book of Abraham, to convince them Joseph was not making it up. Then add all those members, who are biased for the church and have interpreted their sensations in favor of the church's truth claims, who have had to admit Joseph was making it up. The evidence is very one-sided. It's at this point one may be less biased in viewing the evidence of both the physical and internal sensations. Many members cannot remove enough bias to see more clearly.

Oh, ok. So now I must prove it to myself for it to be valid to myself. That is pure stupidity, right up there with young-earth creationism. I owe nothing to you, absolutely nothing. The burden of proof doesn't lie with me. Sorry. The burden of proof lies with Christ when he shows himself to people as the Second Comforter, or when he shows himself to people at the judgement bar. That is true empiricism. And with your attitude, you will never qualify. So, with your drivel, you might as well deny all existence and tell us all to kill ourselves, because our thoughts can't even be proven to be real either, because we ourselves are figments of an imagination. I owe you nothing, let alone any kind of proof of what is subjective. It is Jesus Christ that will prove himself to you, to your damnation or your exaltation. That is his job.

I go around and around in circles with people like you all the time, and the arguments never are any different. Its you, the denialist, denying the reality of my subjectivity, and saying that I owe something to you. I've told you, I owe you absolutely nothing, and have already admitted confirmation bias, and already admitted inability to prove subjectivity. You should be happy with those types of admissions. Because the Holy Ghost will always be real to me and those like me, while you can go to wherever your denialism will lead you to go. Arguing with someone like you never creates any fear in me from your words. I don't fear you, and I don't fear your words, and I don't acknowledge your words as anything of value that gets me any closer to solving problems at hand. Everyone has to make the internal choice to live as they see fit and to have faith in that which they have faith in. I've made my choice. You seemingly have made yours. They are both faith based choices, because you have no more proof than I do to prove that what I subjectively perceive is not so. All you can do is speak and spread denialism and faithlessness to the weak minded. Your position is no more solid.

[_Maksutov]

The burden of proof lies with Christ when he shows himself to people as the Second Comforter, or when he shows himself to people at the judgement bar. That is true empiricism. And with your attitude, you will never qualify. So, with your drivel, you might as well deny all existence and tell us all to kill ourselves, because our thoughts can't even be proven to be real either, because we ourselves are figments of an imagination. I owe you nothing, let alone any kind of proof of what is subjective. It is Jesus Christ that will prove himself to you, to your damnation or your exaltation. That is his job.

I can see why your group has failed. Your arrogance will keep you in your inbred little circle jerk indefinitely. The rest of us will laugh at you.

[_EdGoble]

Ed, you just threw Joseph Smith under the bus.

Actually he throws Joseph and God under the bus. I call it the Joseph and God dumb and dumber theory. Joseph has to be dumb to make so many statements about the papyri including providing specific translations of specific hieroglyphs. God has to be dumber to go along with it, or worse if one wants to suggest he is deceiving Joseph about the papyri.

Or, God just has to allow things to naturalistically happen so that the foundation stone for one becomes the stumbling block for those who will not build on the stone as their foundation. Because we are intentionally in an environment of faith, where our faith is tested.

[_EdGoble]

I can see why your group has failed. Your arrogance will keep you in your inbred little circle jerk indefinitely. The rest of us will laugh at you.

Oh, ok. So now I'm arrogant. And this is because you can't be cordial and throw around insults at people you disagree with in a so-called "Celestial forum." Go ahead and laugh. I'm used to it. I am fully aware that every time I come here, I am among a den of lions that aren't looking to be my friends, but to be fault finders. This is why I don't count many apostates as friends, because they can't act friendly even though they disagree. They have to act like jerks, and then sit there and make accusations that I am a jerk just because I respond the least bit defensively.

[_EdGoble]

Ed, you just threw Joseph Smith under the bus.

Please elaborate because apparently I don't understand your statement.

[_Maksutov]

I can see why your group has failed. Your arrogance will keep you in your inbred little circle jerk indefinitely. The rest of us will laugh at you.

Oh, ok. So now I'm arrogant. And this is because you can't be cordial and throw around insults at people you disagree with in a so-called "Celestial forum." Go ahead and laugh. I'm used to it. I am fully aware that every time I come here, I am among a den of lions that aren't looking to be my friends, but to be fault finders. This is why I don't count many apostates as friends, because they can't act friendly even though they disagree. They have to act like jerks, and then sit there and make accusations that I am a jerk just because I respond the least bit defensively.

When you claim to be above the rules of evidence because of some Jesus-related special pixie dust you've sprinkled on yourself, yeah, you're arrogant. It's okay, it's not a crime or anything. But don't expect others to be convinced. That will only disappoint you.

[_EdGoble]

Ed, you just threw Joseph Smith under the bus.

Actually he throws Joseph and God under the bus. I call it the Joseph and God dumb and dumber theory. Joseph has to be dumb to make so many statements about the papyri including providing specific translations of specific hieroglyphs. God has to be dumber to go along with it, or worse if one wants to suggest he is deceiving Joseph about the papyri.

Or, Joseph did his best with partial information that he recieved, and God didn't give everything there was that could be known about it, and left it to the future.