Did Joseph Smith Jr. ever lie?

[_searcher]

I'd like to avoid the topic of polygamy here, because not everyone agrees that Joseph practiced it, or that being sealed to more than one wife meant having sex with more than one woman in this lifetime.

A lot of people are now saying that polygamy (as practiced in Utah) was invented by Brigham Young and his followers, and any evidence linking it to Joseph was fabricated by them.

That might make for interesting discussion on another thread, but what I'm interested in here is whether there's any evidence that Joseph ever lied about anything else?

Can it be demonstrated, from his own writings or public statements, that he lied, contradicted himself, or was less than truthful?

[_I have a question]

Can it be demonstrated that Joseph was anything but less than truthful?

And I'd like you to avoid mentioning any of the times it can be demonstrated that he was truthful, as they don't count.

[_SteelHead]

Lies:
Seeing angel Nephi who became Moroni.
Seeing an angel, no Jesus, make that God and Jesus in the grove.
And on and on it goes.

[_Maksutov]

Yes, he lied for a living. And people lied to themselves to follow him. But this is nothing new. Prophets are fantastic creations and creators of fantasy, to be inspired and/or entertained by but not to be trusted.

Can you show me a major religious figure who never lied? Religion itself requires lies to conceive it and sustain it. But we think of them as poetry, metaphors and analogies, acceptable in lieu of, or even as superior to, evidence, proofs and data. Scriptures and exhortation communicate ways of living through stories and emotion. Prior to the Enlightenment that was sufficient. Religion is no longer the birthplace of ideas. New religions are typically pastiches of the old ones, rebranded and remarketed by a charismatic seller. They have become an industry, with participants at the Ma and Pop level all the way up to multinational corporations. Their ubiquity has led some people to consider them indispensable and their absence unimaginable. Neither one is true.

[_Fence Sitter]

That he had to marry the Partridge sisters twice is proof he lied to Emma.

The thousands of changes made to D&C are evidence that he lied when he said he received a revelation from God.

His involvement in the Kirkland banking ponzi scheme.

Pretending to translate the Egyptain artifacts and the Greek psalter.

Pretending to know and speak multiple languages.

Translating the Kinderhook plates, a known fraud.

Any time he stuck his face in his hat and pretended to see something in a rock.

[Guest]

Yes, he lied for a living. And people lied to themselves to follow him. But this is nothing new. Prophets are fantastic creations and creators of fantasy, to be inspired and/or entertained by but not to be trusted.

Can you show me a major religious figure who never lied? Religion itself requires lies to conceive it and sustain it. But we think of them as poetry, metaphors and analogies, acceptable in lieu of, or even as superior to, evidence, proofs and data. Scriptures and exhortation communicate ways of living through stories and emotion. Prior to the Enlightenment that was sufficient. Religion is no longer the birthplace of ideas. New religions are typically pastiches of the old ones, rebranded and remarketed by a charismatic seller. They have become an industry, with participants at the Ma and Pop level all the way up to multinational corporations. Their ubiquity has led some people to consider them indispensable and their absence unimaginable. Neither one is true.

Thank you, but that reply seems a little biased.

I'd like to know if there's any evidence Joseph Smith lied about anything, other than whether or not he had more than one wife at a given time (which might involve other questions that would take whole threads to answer--like what he meant by "wife," what being "sealed" for eternity meant, and why there's no DNA evidence of his having children with any of his plural wives -- I'm interested in all those other questions, but would like to avoid them here.)


So can it be demonstrated (from his own writings or public statements), that Joseph Smith Jr. lied, contradicted himself, or was less than truthful?

For example, did he ever say the the Kirtland Bank (or anti-Bank) would be successful?

Did he ever promise anyone that they wouldn't lose their money?

Anything like that?

[_SteelHead]

William Parrish re Joseph Smith

"I have been astonished to hear him declare that we had $60,000 in specie in our vaults and $600,000 at our command, when we had not to exceed $6,000 and could not command any more; also that we had but about ten thousand dollars of our bills in circulation when he, as cashier of that institution, knew that there was at least $150,000." (Letter to Zion's Watchman, published March 24, 1838. Cyrus Smalling also wrote that Joseph had collected only $6,000 in specie. See E. G. Lee, The Mormons, or Knavery Exposed, p. 14)

[_searcher]

That he had to marry the Partridge sisters twice is proof he lied to Emma.

I'm new here, and I'm not familiar with the Partridge sisters, or any evidence that he was married (or sealed) to them twice.

What evidence is there?

[_searcher]

William Parrish re Joseph Smith

"I have been astonished to hear him declare that we had $60,000 in specie in our vaults and $600,000 at our command, when we had not to exceed $6,000 and could not command any more; also that we had but about ten thousand dollars of our bills in circulation when he, as cashier of that institution, knew that there was at least $150,000." (Letter to Zion's Watchman, published March 24, 1838. Cyrus Smalling also wrote that Joseph had collected only $6,000 in specie. See E. G. Lee, The Mormons, or Knavery Exposed, p. 14)

Was Cyrus Smalling an anti-Mormon, and was Zion's Watchman an anti-Mormon publication?

[_SteelHead]

How's this.
Joseph Smith claims to have seen god. I asked god if he ever visited Joseph Smith. God said no. Hence Joseph Smith lied.