Did Joseph Smith Jr. ever lie?

[_Roger]

FS:

I have never heard that Emma and Joseph produced more of the lost parts. Can you provide more information on this?

I may have been mistaken on that. Can't find any support for it and I don't remember where it comes from, so I may simply have misremembered. This was during the time Emma lost a baby so working on the Book of Mormon during that time seems unlikely. She did act as scribe in 1829 but that would have been well after the 116 pages were lost. I was pretty sure there were additional pages beyond what Harris took, but that may not be correct either. If there were no additional pages at the time of the loss then it raises the question of why Joseph felt it necessary to go back to the large plates.

5 Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people.

It would seem to imply that the lost pages had been produced with the aid of some source or sources which would be in Joseph's interest to continue using once he got beyond the lost material.

When one thinks of the time and effort it would have actually taken to produce this small set of plate vs how long reproducing the 116 pages would have taken, this story goes from far fetched to simply unbelievable.

Unless you already accept Joseph as a prophet no matter what he does or says.

He allowed Joseph Smith the use of an seer stone along with paper and pencil to reproduce the same documents He made Book of Mormon prophets inscribe twice on metal plates

Yes. The whole thing is clearly fraud to rational, uninvested observers. The physical plates were alleged to have existed in the real world for centuries and were allegedly seen by many people, only to have been taken back to heaven in the 1800's with only Joseph Smith having seen them. (Mormons, of course, object to that, arguing there were other witnesses, but, as we know, those witnesses were coerced as well as heavily biased, and eventually admit they never saw the plates with their real eyes).

If you have ever spent any time looking at the Joseph Smith Papers, this claim about men being able to alter the words is obviously a lie. See here for an example of a written manuscript back then.

Agreed. That's one reason I suspect there were already some sort of notations and/or changes already on some of the manuscript pages. If that's the case, then Joseph knew he'd not only have to account for the discrepancies, but also the markings/changes on the manuscript.

[_deacon blues]

Similarly, Joseph Smith never had to lie about polygamy, if he was truly commanded by God to practice it. He could have done it completely in the open, and let God clean up all the repercussions. I believe the cunning, surreptitious practice of polygamy was an inadvertent admission that it wasn't from God.........unless one believes God told Joseph how to practice it, which is denied by the church's essays on polygamy.

[_Roger]

I believe the cunning, surreptitious practice of polygamy was an inadvertent admission that it wasn't from God.

Yes. Again, it's another one of those things that seemingly could only go one of two ways. Either Joseph Smith lied or God works in really bizarre ways. I suppose the third option could be that God commanded a "pure" form of polygamy (which sounds ridiculous on it's face) and then Joseph corrupted it, but most LDS simply want to put the whole blame on God (although they would certainly attempt to frame it more politely).

I can't see an omniscient, loving God commanding polygamy in the first place, but certainly not in the cases where the women were already married to other men. That just defies any reasonable explanation. And in my opinion, it goes way over the line when Joseph uses the promise of eternal salvation to bribe Helen Kimbal (and her family!) if she will just relent and marry the prophet.

This, to me, is clear evidence of intentional lying on the part of Joseph Smith in order to gratify some way over the line lusts and to exert a ridiculous level of power over his followers. It's either that or God really operates in bizarre ways. I blame Joseph Smith. Faithful LDS blame God.

[_subgenius]

Yes, he lied for a living. And people lied to themselves to follow him. But this is nothing new. Prophets are fantastic creations and creators of fantasy, to be inspired and/or entertained by but not to be trusted.

Can you show me a major religious figure who never lied? Religion itself requires lies to conceive it and sustain it. But we think of them as poetry, metaphors and analogies, acceptable in lieu of, or even as superior to, evidence, proofs and data. Scriptures and exhortation communicate ways of living through stories and emotion. Prior to the Enlightenment that was sufficient. Religion is no longer the birthplace of ideas. New religions are typically pastiches of the old ones, rebranded and remarketed by a charismatic seller. They have become an industry, with participants at the Ma and Pop level all the way up to multinational corporations. Their ubiquity has led some people to consider them indispensable and their absence unimaginable. Neither one is true.

I believe the OP asked for actual evidence...not for whatever soap box blather you posted (a.k.a. - not evidence)

[_Maksutov]

Yes, he lied for a living. And people lied to themselves to follow him. But this is nothing new. Prophets are fantastic creations and creators of fantasy, to be inspired and/or entertained by but not to be trusted.

Can you show me a major religious figure who never lied? Religion itself requires lies to conceive it and sustain it. But we think of them as poetry, metaphors and analogies, acceptable in lieu of, or even as superior to, evidence, proofs and data. Scriptures and exhortation communicate ways of living through stories and emotion. Prior to the Enlightenment that was sufficient. Religion is no longer the birthplace of ideas. New religions are typically pastiches of the old ones, rebranded and remarketed by a charismatic seller. They have become an industry, with participants at the Ma and Pop level all the way up to multinational corporations. Their ubiquity has led some people to consider them indispensable and their absence unimaginable. Neither one is true.

I believe the OP asked for actual evidence...not for whatever soap box blather you posted (a.k.a. - not evidence)

Actual evidence isn't something you would understand Subby, as your holocaust denial amply demonstrates.

[_I have a question]

I believe the OP asked for actual evidence...not for whatever soap box blather you posted (a.k.a. - not evidence)

Fail, as usual.

I'd like to avoid the topic of polygamy here, because not everyone agrees that Joseph practiced it, or that being sealed to more than one wife meant having sex with more than one woman in this lifetime.

A lot of people are now saying that polygamy (as practiced in Utah) was invented by Brigham Young and his followers, and any evidence linking it to Joseph was fabricated by them.

That might make for interesting discussion on another thread, but what I'm interested in here is whether there's any evidence that Joseph ever lied about anything else?

Can it be demonstrated, from his own writings or public statements, that he lied, contradicted himself, or was less than truthful?

So you see, the OP already accepts Joseph lied.
But wants evidence of Joseph lying from Joseph's own mouth (hand) about something other than his philandering.

Try and get Bernie Madoff admitting he's a fraudster but you can't use any of his admissions of fraud.

[_subgenius]

I believe the OP asked for actual evidence...not for whatever soap box blather you posted (a.k.a. - not evidence)

Actual evidence isn't something you would understand Subby, as your holocaust denial amply demonstrates. [/quote]
please, demonstrate where i ever "denied" the holocaust...see, this is where the integrity of your intellect becomes more than its usual feeble due to the presuppositions you bring to a discussion. For example, that particular holocaust thread contains many instances of my affirmation for the holocaust occurring....so, apart from misunderstanding how things are "demonstrated", you also misunderstand what the OP was requesting....but please, do not let me distract you from yourself - as is so amply demonstrated by your avatar.

[_subgenius]

I believe the OP asked for actual evidence...not for whatever soap box blather you posted (a.k.a. - not evidence)

Fail, as usual.

I'd like to avoid the topic of polygamy here, because not everyone agrees that Joseph practiced it, or that being sealed to more than one wife meant having sex with more than one woman in this lifetime.

A lot of people are now saying that polygamy (as practiced in Utah) was invented by Brigham Young and his followers, and any evidence linking it to Joseph was fabricated by them.

That might make for interesting discussion on another thread, but what I'm interested in here is whether there's any evidence that Joseph ever lied about anything else?

Can it be demonstrated, from his own writings or public statements, that he lied, contradicted himself, or was less than truthful?

So you see, the OP already accepts Joseph lied.
But wants evidence of Joseph lying from Joseph's own mouth (hand) about something other than his philandering.
you may want to check the grammar - the OP clearly states that issues surrounding polygamy are arguable by either side (see underline above)...so the OP asks for examples about "something else" as in something other than polygamy...so, while one may infer that the poster consider Joseph Smith Old Testament have lied about polygamy, it is not actual evidence of a lie and further the OP asks for evidence - and to that end the post i responded to provided no evidence for anything, anything the OP requested or anything at all - except that the poser has a rather limited and baseless opinion on the topic.
Try and get Bernie Madoff admitting he's a fraudster but you can't use any of his admissions of fraud.
i agree...and simply saying he is fraudster isn't usable either...ergo the whole request for evidence...which of course wasn't provided by the responding poster's "opinion"
again...
note the bold-type request above and point out in the responding post where such request was fulfilled


fail indeed

[_Maksutov]

please, demonstrate where i ever "denied" the holocaust...see, this is where the integrity of your intellect becomes more than its usual feeble due to the presuppositions you bring to a discussion. For example, that particular holocaust thread contains many instances of my affirmation for the holocaust occurring....so, apart from misunderstanding how things are "demonstrated", you also misunderstand what the OP was requesting....but please, do not let me distract you from yourself - as is so amply demonstrated by your avatar.

Come on Subby, your debacle is still fresh in memory. You brought up the holocaust for the sheer offensiveness of it and to muddy the waters. You were all over the map and left a huge incoherent mess. But don't let that stop you from defending your lying prophet. After all, he wasn't responsible for your ineptitude.

[_subgenius]

Come on Subby, your debacle is still fresh in memory. You brought up the holocaust for the sheer offensiveness of it and to muddy the waters.

again, presuppositions...when unable to address message you go after messenger. You insist that you "know" the true motives when the motive you are presented with is not to your liking.

You were all over the map and left a huge incoherent mess. But don't let that stop you from defending your lying prophet. After all, he wasn't responsible for your ineptitude.

I am not defending anyone...once again, your presuppositions replace your intellect (or rumor of intellect). I simply pointed out how the poster did not respond to the OP's request and only offered soap-box styled conjecture...kinda like you are doing here - rather than deal with the actual topic, you would prefer to discuss your fantasy about whatever you imagined was going on with another thread and then conclude that this must surely make you correct about this thread.