New Book of Abraham Research Group

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_EdGoble
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Re: New Book of Abraham Research Group

Post by _EdGoble »

Maksutov wrote:Hey, I hope you stick around, Ed. You're actually an interesting guy. Just don't expect us to share your presuppositions. You've also got to dispense with people like Robert Ritner and Klaus Baer and others and you're really, really not going to. :wink: Work on uploading yourself into the matrix before the Singularity, though. That's time well spent.


Maksutov, I actually like you. If only you would be a bit more charitable.
_EdGoble
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Re: New Book of Abraham Research Group

Post by _EdGoble »

Res Ipsa wrote:Ed, can you point to an example of Egyptians at that time doing the same thing you claim they did here?


http://egyptianalphabetandgrammar.blogspot.com/p/dictionaries-what-is-dictionary-is.html

In the latest incarnation of this article, I think I demonstrate one particular case of what I am talking about, step by step.
_EdGoble
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Re: New Book of Abraham Research Group

Post by _EdGoble »

sock puppet wrote:Ed,

Might I ask how you explain the incongruities of JSjr's restoration of the lacunae in Facsimile 2 with the portions that survived intact?


The same way everybody else does that is a critic. Joseph Smith took some stuff from the Sensen Papyrus to fill in the portions that were missing. The randomness doesn't lend itself to an interpretation that he was succeeding in restoring every portion as in the original, but that he was mostly doing it just to make it aesthetically pleasing.

The success that he had has more to do with specific interpretations of characters that can be reverse engineered to expose the system of usage. His success was not so much in actual restoration of missing material.
_EdGoble
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Re: New Book of Abraham Research Group

Post by _EdGoble »

Maksutov wrote:
sock puppet wrote:Ed,

Might I ask how you explain the incongruities of JSjr's restoration of the lacunae in Facsimile 2 with the portions that survived intact?


I suppose this little document should be explained by Ed as well.

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paperS ... r-1835&p=7


In fact, that is exactly what I am explaining, and why my blog url is "egyptianalphabetandgrammar.blogspot.com". The blog used to be called "The Ancient Context of Joseph Smith's Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar." So, in other words, most apologists have focused on the Facsimiles. I am trying to show that the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar in the KEP is just as defensible as the Facsimiles.
_Maksutov
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Re: New Book of Abraham Research Group

Post by _Maksutov »

EdGoble wrote:
Maksutov wrote:Hey, I hope you stick around, Ed. You're actually an interesting guy. Just don't expect us to share your presuppositions. You've also got to dispense with people like Robert Ritner and Klaus Baer and others and you're really, really not going to. :wink: Work on uploading yourself into the matrix before the Singularity, though. That's time well spent.


Maksutov, I actually like you. If only you would be a bit more charitable.


Thanks, Ed. I am sorry if I have been unduly harsh. I hope that bright Mormons like yourself can transform the church and/or culture. Thinking outside the box will be needed. Mormons are my people and I am probably a sort of Mormon in spite of resigning 16 years ago. I see much good in the people and great potential. I'm afraid that it's been diverted foolishly and neglected. I think this transformation, if it happens, will be an emergent phenomenon from people like yourself. But I don't endorse replacing one set of farfetched premises for another one.

The internet is where we work and play and relate to each other now and the internet is massively full of occult and pseudoscientific nonsense. It's so easy to broadcast resurrected frauds to new generations who have never heard about the grisly details. Mormonism came out of a milieu stew of craziness in New York and those elements still remain in it. That needs to be overcome. I'm not sure it's possible, frankly, and I don't and won't lead any reforms myself. Long ago I was involved in such things but no more. Critical thinking in examining extraordinary claims is now Internet 101. And the sellers of silliness become ever more sophisticated.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_EdGoble
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Re: New Book of Abraham Research Group

Post by _EdGoble »

Maksutov wrote:
So Adam and Eve were aliens. And we're hybrids. So X-files goes back 6,000 years? :lol: :lol: :lol:


Glad you guys are amused. But in all seriousness, I think that my explanation for this one is very good from an LDS faithful point of view. It is only because that is not your point of view that you don't share in the recognition of the value that it adds to making the theology better harmonize with the evidence.
_Maksutov
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Re: New Book of Abraham Research Group

Post by _Maksutov »

EdGoble wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
So Adam and Eve were aliens. And we're hybrids. So X-files goes back 6,000 years? :lol: :lol: :lol:


Glad you guys are amused. But in all seriousness, I think that my explanation for this one is very good from an LDS faithful point of view. It is only because that is not your point of view that you don't share in the recognition of the value that it adds to making the theology better harmonize with the evidence.


Using aliens as an explanation is about as strong as using angels or just "God did it."

What is your evidence that beings with completely compatible human DNA exist on other worlds? You do realize that "cosmic pluralism" is both an ancient and a thoroughly debunked notion. Besides dealing with pseudoarchaeological problems, would you also add the burdens of endless UFOlogical fraud and delusions to be sorted through?
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_EdGoble
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Re: New Book of Abraham Research Group

Post by _EdGoble »

Maksutov wrote:Thanks, Ed. I am sorry if I have been unduly harsh. I hope that bright Mormons like yourself can transform the church and/or culture. Thinking outside the box will be needed. Mormons are my people and I am probably a sort of Mormon in spite of resigning 16 years ago. I see much good in the people and great potential. I'm afraid that it's been diverted foolishly and neglected. I think this transformation, if it happens, will be an emergent phenomenon from people like yourself. But I don't endorse replacing one set of farfetched premises for another one.

The internet is where we work and play and relate to each other now and the internet is massively full of occult and pseudoscientific nonsense. It's so easy to broadcast resurrected frauds to new generations who have never heard about the grisly details. Mormonism came out of a milieu stew of craziness in New York and those elements still remain in it. That needs to be overcome. I'm not sure it's possible, frankly, and I don't and won't lead any reforms myself. Long ago I was involved in such things but no more. Critical thinking in examining extraordinary claims is now Internet 101. And the sellers of silliness become ever more sophisticated.


Well Maksutov, I can understand how you would want and hope for Mormonism to rise above pseudoscience and be more rational. I realize that Mormons like me wont entirely take the reform to the degree you may wish for, but in this thing, I think, we are united in hoping for theological reforms. I think we are seeing some of it, where some of the most unsupportable things are being shaved off, but where Mormons are still clinging to the cherished core of what gives them identity. I actually wrote a post on this process on my regular blog, and interestingly, it seems that the theme of hybridization is manifest in this process as well:

http://thoughtfulmormonism.blogspot.com/2014/09/google-apostasy-and-knowledge.html
_Maksutov
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Re: New Book of Abraham Research Group

Post by _Maksutov »

EdGoble wrote:
Maksutov wrote:Thanks, Ed. I am sorry if I have been unduly harsh. I hope that bright Mormons like yourself can transform the church and/or culture. Thinking outside the box will be needed. Mormons are my people and I am probably a sort of Mormon in spite of resigning 16 years ago. I see much good in the people and great potential. I'm afraid that it's been diverted foolishly and neglected. I think this transformation, if it happens, will be an emergent phenomenon from people like yourself. But I don't endorse replacing one set of farfetched premises for another one.

The internet is where we work and play and relate to each other now and the internet is massively full of occult and pseudoscientific nonsense. It's so easy to broadcast resurrected frauds to new generations who have never heard about the grisly details. Mormonism came out of a milieu stew of craziness in New York and those elements still remain in it. That needs to be overcome. I'm not sure it's possible, frankly, and I don't and won't lead any reforms myself. Long ago I was involved in such things but no more. Critical thinking in examining extraordinary claims is now Internet 101. And the sellers of silliness become ever more sophisticated.


Well Maksutov, I can understand how you would want and hope for Mormonism to rise above pseudoscience and be more rational. I realize that Mormons like me wont entirely take the reform to the degree you may wish for, but in this thing, I think, we are united in hoping for theological reforms. I think we are seeing some of it, where some of the most unsupportable things are being shaved off, but where Mormons are still clinging to the cherished core of what gives them identity. I actually wrote a post on this process on my regular blog, and interestingly, it seems that the theme of hybridization is manifest in this process as well:

http://thoughtfulmormonism.blogspot.com/2014/09/google-apostasy-and-knowledge.html


Interesting blog. I liked it. But Missouri in 4000 BC? Naw. It won't hurt anything to let that one go. Same with the gathering there. Have you been to Missouri? :lol:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_EdGoble
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Re: New Book of Abraham Research Group

Post by _EdGoble »

Maksutov wrote:Using aliens as an explanation is about as strong as using angels or just "God did it."

What is your evidence that beings with completely compatible human DNA exist on other worlds? You do realize that "cosmic pluralism" is both an ancient and a thoroughly debunked notion. Besides dealing with pseudoarchaeological problems, would you also add the burdens of endless UFOlogical fraud and delusions to be sorted through?


Well, I didn't suggest that Adam and Eve were "aliens" precisely, in the same sense that we are used to. That was this guy's theory:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671227475/

There is some similarity between his theory and mine of course. I just learned of the existence of this book recently when a guy on the LDSFF referred me to it, and then I acquired a copy.
I am actually just suggesting that God himself is a human, but the fact that he is not from this world makes him extraterrestrial. He didn't use UFO's to get here. And he and his wife came here to have children, so that their children would eventually meet up and hybridize.

I don't have specific evidence of this course. You have to remember that some of my evidence is religious, and everything that I do is an attempt at harmonization between science and that. And so it is a foregone conclusion that those that don't share that epistemological ideology will not agree. I'm comfortable with that fact.

The empirical evidence I have is only that of science, of course and I don't presume to suggest that science is supportive of every specific thing that I theorize. Rather, it is in the hybridization of science and Mormonism where these things emerge from.

But, specifically, science is more generally supportive of the idea of horizontal gene transfer and hybridization of unrelated species. For example the sea squirt is a product of a hybridization event of an ancient chordate and the ancestor of the sea urchin. Yes, most of these kinds of events are not viable, but once in a while, there will be a weird event that ends up being viable. Most of the time when horizontal gene transfer is viable is at the microbial level. We see it all the time where a gene for resistance is spread throughout the whole microbial world between non-related species.

Another example is that the genes from jellyfish where our eyes came from is actually something that the jellyfish got from a horizontal transfer of genes from plankton.

But there is a serious scientific position called the pig/chimp hypothesis which states that homonins are descended from the common ancestor they have with the chimp, but that along the line, there was an introduction of porcine genes into the line. This makes a lot of sense as to why pig organs are so compatible with humans, etc., and why many things that differentiate us from chimps is what we share with pigs, etc. Except, the scientist that suggests this hypothesis believes that there was an actual mating event between a pig and a chimp-like animal. In my emails with the scientist that came up with this hypothesis, I have told him that I disagree with this, but that rather, I believe that the genes were introduced into a homonin ancestor through a bite from a wild pig-like animal, perhaps a wild boar or something. And so, it introduced stem cells, and there was a fusion at a fundamental chromosomal level, and then those cells made their way to the reproductive organs of the animal.

This is similar to how there were multiple events were SIV was introduced to humans from chimps and from gorillas, and how some HIV strains are more related to the Chimp variety of SIV, while other strains are more related to the gorilla variety. And how probably these events sometimes may have been because of a bite. SIV may have jumped the species barrier multiple times in history from various great apes or other primates.

And so, its not surprising that Heavenly Father's children would have hybridized with native humans.
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