Noah's Ark questions

[_Themis]

It still changes the story about where humans came from. Even the article states we are descendants of Adam and Eve. This is a young earth POV, unless you are going to reincarnate BY teaching about Adam also being Father in heaven. One wonders why Adams earthly parents didn't get to have a fully human spirit. Did Adam's neighbors get a full spirit body who were born after Adam, or do they only go to those who physically have Adam and Eve as a descendant?

I am not required to side with any point of view that is young-earth creationist.
I didn't say that I believe in the part of the pre-Adamic theory that Adam's parents were of Cro-Magnon descent.
I believe that the parents of Adam's physical body are Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. To believe that does not require belief in Adam-God.
The part about Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother living in Eden for a time to raise a family, and their children later partaking of the fruit after being deceived (a la Bruce R. McConkie), does make sense though.
There was clearly some point where Adam's descendants started to intermarry with the people of Cro-Magnon descent.

You just moved back one generation with Heavenly father and mother have physical children Adam and Eve. It's a weird speculation, and why would God need to do that if modern humans are already running around the earth. Cro-Magnon is already long gone at this time, and they lived in the wrong place. Modern humans were the ones who migrated to the America's. Adam and Eve's children interbreeding with some lesser human group would have little impact and does not fit what we know about ancient humans in the last 20k years or so. It's the problem with coming up with pseudo science ideas to fit altered views of unsubstantiated religious claims. That's why many just see it as made up ideas of people who lacked enough accurate information to come up with accurate ideas about the world.

[Guest]

You just moved back one generation with Heavenly father and mother have physical children Adam and Eve. It's a weird speculation, and why would God need to do that if modern humans are already running around the earth. Cro-Magnon is already long gone at this time, and they lived in the wrong place. Modern humans were the ones who migrated to the America's. Adam and Eve's children interbreeding with some lesser human group would have little impact and does not fit what we know about ancient humans in the last 20k years or so. It's the problem with coming up with pseudo science ideas to fit altered views of unsubstantiated religious claims. That's why many just see it as made up ideas of people who lacked enough accurate information to come up with accurate ideas about the world.

I recall not long ago going in a different thread into a detailed explanation about the actual distinction between religious ideas and pseudoscience. It seems that you may have not paid much attention to that distinction. I will repeat it here again.

Science is purely concerned with methodological naturalism. ANY ontological claim of any sort outside of methodological naturalism be it theistic or atheistic in any way, shape or form, is out of the reach of science.

Therefore, atheists that claim that science is supportive of their ontological claims that God does not exist are as guilty of pseudoscience as young-earth creationist ID supporters are.
Why?

Pseudoscience is an idea that actually makes a claim to be scientific, but is not.

Religion or metaphysics are claims to information or an idea or hypothesis that is outside the realm of science but does not claim to be arrived at through any sort of scientific methodology.

Therefore, just because my claims are metaphysical and religious doesn't make me pseudoscientific.

Your overblown idea that you think you can use science-based "accurate information" as you call it to invalidate my religious hypotheses, however, does indeed actually constitute pseudoscience on your part.

[_Themis]

I'm still waiting for any real confirmation of any of the "spiritual body" phenomena. Without further evidence I think it belongs with the Ether and Animal Magnetism in the dustbin of pseudoscience. The concept has hardly advanced since the hallucinations of Emanuel Swedenborg around 1750.

It's time to advance then.
There are serious scientific hypotheses of dark-matter electromagnetism and dark-matter fundamental particles that are analogs to protons, electrons and neutrons, which have chemical interactions among themselves based on this type of electromagnetism. Therefore, dark atoms and dark chemistry, and therefore dark biology.

To hypothesize that a spirit body is made of dark-matter makes a lot of sense. In other words, we are dark-matter-based lifeforms/entities inhabiting/possessing shells made of baryonic matter.

http://www.space.com/21508-dark-matter-atoms-disks.html

This would explain why spirits have all the attributes of neutrino-like particles that can pass right through other types of matter, because they are not necessarily subject to having to interact with regular electro-magnetism, and therefore, would not be seen or be detectable or touchable, because they don't interact with regular electro-magnetic bonds or with photons. They would have their own type of chemical and electro-magnetic bonds that bond them together in a structure existing parallel to our own world, and be able to exist in the space between regular baryonic particles.

Therefore the true substrate of consciousness lies not in the brain, but in its dark-matter double, and therefore what we see in fMRI scans, etc., is just a mirror image of reactions happening in the dark-matter brain substrate.

Scientists need a lot more then pure speculation. We see no good evidence to support the idea we have spirits, but many are hugely biased to fit it into any scientific hypothesis that real scientists are coming up with. I suppose that is why people cannot accept Joseph was making it up when we have so much evidence of him doing so.

[_EdGoble]

Scientists need a lot more then pure speculation.

Of course they do, but the process of discovery begins with hypothesis.

[_Maksutov]

I'm still waiting for any real confirmation of any of the "spiritual body" phenomena. Without further evidence I think it belongs with the Ether and Animal Magnetism in the dustbin of pseudoscience. The concept has hardly advanced since the hallucinations of Emanuel Swedenborg around 1750.

It's time to advance then.
There are serious scientific hypotheses of dark-matter electromagnetism and dark-matter fundamental particles that are analogs to protons, electrons and neutrons, which have chemical interactions among themselves based on this type of electromagnetism. Therefore, dark atoms and dark chemistry, and therefore dark biology.

To hypothesize that a spirit body is made of dark-matter makes a lot of sense. In other words, we are dark-matter-based lifeforms/entities inhabiting/possessing shells made of baryonic matter.

http://www.space.com/21508-dark-matter-atoms-disks.html

This would explain why spirits have all the attributes of neutrino-like particles that can pass right through other types of matter, because they are not necessarily subject to having to interact with regular electro-magnetism, and therefore, would not be seen or be detectable or touchable, because they don't interact with regular electro-magnetic bonds or with photons. They would have their own type of chemical and electro-magnetic bonds that bond them together in a structure existing parallel to our own world, and be able to exist in the space between regular baryonic particles.

Therefore the true substrate of consciousness lies not in the brain, but in its dark-matter double, and therefore what we see in fMRI scans, etc., is just a mirror image of reactions happening in the dark-matter brain substrate.

I see dark matter being deployed in a God of the gaps way, an argument from ignorance. We don't know enough about dark matter to say any of the things you're describing.

You still can't explain why our consciousness is affected so dramatically by not-dark-matter influences. Taking psilocybin or LSD can produce spiritual experiences through affecting the biochemistry of the brain and nervous system. We can analyze this in great detail. We can see how strokes and other neurological events impair consciousness by their damage to cell tissues. No invocation of dark matter, holy ghosts, God or anything spiritual required. You have to explain how dark matter interacts within the visible matter body and how you can demonstrate this. You can't. It's speculation of the Deepak Chopra variety. It adds nothing, explains nothing, is not parsimonious. You can do better than this, Ed. If you want rational supernaturalism, take up astrology.

[_EdGoble]

I see dark matter being deployed in a God of the gaps way, an argument from ignorance.

I can see why you would try to make that claim, but actually, my dark-matter spirit argument is so brilliant that I anticipate that many Mormon Transhumanists will adopt it as a preferred hypothesis to their monist viewpoints.

[_Themis]

Science is purely concerned with methodological naturalism. ANY ontological claim of any sort outside of methodological naturalism be it theistic or atheistic in any way, shape or form, is out of the reach of science.

Yet you cannot know if any claim is outside of methodological claim. The problem for science is vague claims that allow those making the claims to find some gap to fit into until science fills it. Then they move to another gap. How many claims of supernatural causes are now understand not to be supernatural? If God actually exists I would argue that God would be natural.

Therefore, atheists that claim that science is supportive of their ontological claims that God does not exist are as guilty of pseudoscience as young-earth creationist ID supporters are.
Why?

Some atheists make assertions God does not exist, but many do not. Just that we have no good evidence to think God actually exists anymore then Satan, fairies, angels, Bigfoot, Xenu, Marvin the Martian, etc.

Religion or metaphysics are claims to information or an idea or hypothesis that is outside the realm of science but does not claim to be arrived at through any sort of scientific methodology.

Therefore, just because my claims are metaphysical and religious doesn't make me pseudoscientific.

I'm sure you would like to think so, but no.

Your overblown idea that you think you can use science-based "accurate information" as you call it to invalidate my religious hypotheses, however, does indeed actually constitute pseudoscience on your part.

That would depend on the religious hypothesis/assertion. Claims that God exists are extremely vague and undefined such that science is not interested in such a claim, but say the Book of Mormon is about a real people or that Joseph translated Egyptian writing is something science can address.

[_Themis]

I see dark matter being deployed in a God of the gaps way, an argument from ignorance.

I can see why you would try to make that claim, but actually, my dark-matter spirit argument is so brilliant that I anticipate that many Mormon Transhumanists will adopt it as a preferred hypothesis to their monist viewpoints.

It's still a classic God of the gaps argument. People like to go there in hopes they can find a vague place to exist free from real investigation.

[_Maksutov]

I can see why you would try to make that claim, but actually, my dark-matter spirit argument is so brilliant that I anticipate that many Mormon Transhumanists will adopt it as a preferred hypothesis to their monist viewpoints.

It's still a classic God of the gaps argument. People like to go there in hopes they can find a vague place to exist free from real investigation.

There is no need for a solution like Ed's. Its only purpose is to salvage the credibility and reputation of a person long dead who had nothing to say about dark matter and nothing unique to say about the soul or spirit. Swedenborg described events that correspond to fugue states and seizures in his Dream Diary, suggestive of temporal lobe epilepsy. Joseph Smith may not have had any kind of disorder but might have been one of the estimated 4% of the population described as "fantasy prone individuals", examples of hallucination that is compatible with 'sanity'. Or he may have imagined or invented his stories, as we know has happened with many other people. Special pleading is not convincing.

[_Maksutov]

I see dark matter being deployed in a God of the gaps way, an argument from ignorance.

I can see why you would try to make that claim, but actually, my dark-matter spirit argument is so brilliant that I anticipate that many Mormon Transhumanists will adopt it as a preferred hypothesis to their monist viewpoints.

Then by all means, go ahead. Your standing with the Mormon Transhumanist Association is certainly more important than the judgment of the Nobel Committee.