Noah's Ark questions

[_Quasimodo]

You are whistling in the dark, my friend.

Glad you consider me a friend. Glad to know you.

Glad to know you, too. Differences in opinion (even big ones) shouldn't preclude a friendship. As I often say on this board, if I expected my friends to agree with me about everything, I wouldn't have any.

[_Maksutov]

It is only actually evidence that science as it stands at this moment in time is unsupportive.

Sorry but no. I think I explained it well but maybe this will help.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence

Funny you should bring that up. I do happen to have apostatized from the Squatchers. I no longer believe.

And yet you proposed Mormons should do the opposite.

Actually it really does matter, because it was predicted by the Book of Mormon and it showed up, and your minimization of it will not change that. It is actually a spear right to the heart of the matter.

It was predicted by some they didn't use cement who were ignorant of the facts available. The problem is the idea of ancients using cement was an idea in the early 1800's. So Joseph using it is not a problem for those who think Joseph made up the story. It would be a problem if we had no idea about this, as it would bring up the question of how did Joseph know. Since it did exist we know a way Joseph would think they did.

Nothing that is seemingly against it is unsuperable, and in other areas, the evidence is indeed growing with every shovel-full of dirt dug from Pre-Classic Mayan sites.

And what recent shovel full would that be? I know a little about the Mayans, and it is nothing like the Book of Mormon. Scientific knowledge grows and with it more evidence against the Book of Mormon, and none that I have seen to support it. If I am wrong give me some recent evidence. New DNA research has been devastating to the Book of Mormon even though most are not aware or understand how.

As with other apologists, Ed uses the strategy of rewriting the Bible and the Book of Mormon by reinterpreting, rejecting literal meanings and other contortions to make it compatible with what is often an equally reinterpreted and contorted version of the scientific model. If I wished, I could reinterpret and rewrite the Bhagavad Gita to claim that it provides records of nuclear wars and interplanetary travel among ancient Indians. Oh wait, someone has already done that. Ever heard of vimanas? In fact, it's a standard move of the revisionist historians on Ancient Aliens, American Unearthed, and other sources of pseudohistory and conspiracy theory. It requires much more effort to methodically refute than nonsense than to publish it in the first place, so the skeptical community is always playing catch up.

We already have the verdict of the archaeologists that the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham are 19th century productions. Any reforming or salvage of Mormonism has to start from there, honestly addressing what is increasingly obvious.

[_EdGoble]

Yes a test which makes no sense, and is a test of gullibility. I seriously doubt a God would reward people for gullibility. You dismiss science when it doesn't fit what you want to believe, just as so many others do in other religions. They to will be faithful to their beliefs and legacies of their ancestors. Except for your ancestors who were not Mormon or Christian.

Or, a test of patience and faith and belief, and willingness to persist, as it has always been claimed to be.
I have no idea what you mean. I have pioneer ancestry on every single line except one great grandparent.

[_EdGoble]

Don't forget the blessing of paying tithing. That will make you feel good too. B. F. Skinner would be impressed.

I'm sure he would be. Oh believe me, I have thoroughly enjoyed the blessings from tithing.

[Guest]

Well, I see I expended too much effort when all you intended was flippancy.

I have always tried to respond as best I can. I am not trying to be flippant, but I do like you.

If your responses are going to be this evasive and superficial, you probably aren't going be interested in real discussions.

I thought that by now that you would consider me a lot more substantial than most Mormons that you have sparred with.

you dodge the quite obvious creationist burden,

I have no burden. Things for me just are in the state they are because I have personal no control over the state of the evidence. I only have control of how I personally respond to the current state of things. I realize that you guys would like to put that burden upon me, but it is only upon me if I accept it. My participation on this forum does not have a prerequisite of my being able to take on a burden that is not in my control or power or responsibility to take, despite your insistence to the contrary.

trying to shift it to others,

It is rightly shifted to others, to those that have the PhD's and who dig in the dirt, who have the callings and responsibilities to find the stuff. If they aren't doing their jobs, or if the will of God is not for them to find what they hope, that is both their problem and God's problem. I exist in the state that I am in in spite of whatever state the evidence is for each and every issue. Your trying to insist that I have this burden does not give me the burden. It doesn't matter what you want to say about that. I don't accept that burden, and I am under no emergency or anxiety just because you are some dude on a message board that wants to insist on something.

and you persist in trying to adopt forms of pseudoscience ("spirit dark matter") into your 'modified Mormon' system.

Yes, I persist in doing what I must to exist and continue in the state that I find myself. I think I have done quite well under the circumstances, and in all actuality, have thrived in the circumstances, because of the personal choices I have made.

And the state of siege? You obviously weren't paying attention but, yep, that's why there was a Swedish rescue and the essays that aren't really promoted, that's why Jeff Holland has a melt down on BBC and why, as you point out, excavations ARE NOT DONE at places like Cumorah and Adam-ondi-Ahman. The church could put up or shut up. They won't do either. They're afraid. They bluff and deflect and dissemble. They're just men trying to sell a product that is not trusted or wanted outside the desperate illiterate populations of the Third World.

You can find fault with them all you want. It doesn't change the fact that they are navigating old Ship Zion through turbulent waters as best they can under the circumstances that they also find themselves, much like the circumstances that I find myself, and they are trying to adapt. Remember, I said, it is about survival of the fittest among us. Mormonism will be a lot more fit after all of this. That is clearly part of God's reason for this *sieve*, not siege. This is the time where Mormons must be sifted. They are not under siege as you claim. Sifted, yes. And for those who choose not to persist, well, their choice is respected.

Yes, Ed, you have a creationist burden. To support the stories of Adam and Eve and Noah as historical is a creationist burden, even though you rewrite them until they're unrecognizable. I'm sorry that you struggle with this, but you don't have to. Your irritation is misplaced. Your argument is with the "world". And I'm sure you're willing to take that on because it won't cost you much and it earns the admiration of your cohorts.

I do see you as a more thoughtful and substantial LDS person and that causes me sadness. You have a lot to lose. It is not for me to call on you to accept that loss for any reason. But you have tied yourself to a leadership that is unworthy of you. I don't see them as evil men, or as a conspiracy to take over the world. I equate them to a large insurance company with extensive real estate holdings that also provides social services and has a quaint system for obtaining revenue. It's hard for me to say if that means they're performing adequately for their shareholders, but it's perfectly clear to me that they don't have any superior knowledge or morality, in fact it's often quite the opposite. But most importantly, they're just another example of a gathering of humans who start imagining that they're more than that. It could be a bunch of Cubs fans, a union, a book club, a militia, it's all put together by people for people. It doesn't involve beings from other worlds or universes, hidden occult records, people with super powers, or any of that. It's people who believe crazy stuff for their own reasons and develop convoluted microcultures to sustain them. There's nothing there but people, Ed. There never was.

[_EdGoble]

As with other apologists, Ed uses the strategy of rewriting the Bible and the Book of Mormon by reinterpreting, rejecting literal meanings and other contortions to make it compatible with what is often an equally reinterpreted and contorted version of the scientific model. If I wished, I could reinterpret and rewrite the Bhagavad Gita to claim that it provides records of nuclear wars and interplanetary travel among ancient Indians. Oh wait, someone has already done that. Ever heard of vimanas? In fact, it's a standard move of the revisionist historians on Ancient Aliens, American Unearthed, and other sources of pseudohistory and conspiracy theory. It requires much more effort to methodically refute than nonsense than to publish it in the first place, so the skeptical community is always playing catch up.

We already have the verdict of the archaeologists that the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham are 19th century productions. Any reforming or salvage of Mormonism has to start from there, honestly addressing what is increasingly obvious.

Reform is necessary to get to the truth of a matter. Rough stone rolling, a chunk comes off there, a chunk here, until it is a polished Urim and Thummim where things are seen clearly.

"To attain the Way of strategy as a warrior you must study fully other martial arts and not deviate even a little from the Way of the warrior. With your spirit settled, accumulate practice day by day, and hour by hour. Polish the twofold spirit heart and mind, and sharpen the twofold gaze perception and sight. When your spirit is not in the least clouded, when the clouds of bewilderment clear away, there is the true void." -- Miyamoto Musashi

When all the clouds of bewilderment are cleared away, there will be the polished Mormonism.

[_Maksutov]

Don't forget the blessing of paying tithing. That will make you feel good too. B. F. Skinner would be impressed.

I'm sure he would be. Oh believe me, I have thoroughly enjoyed the blessings from tithing.

Why not? I have a sincere testimony of the blessings of not giving the church money. I've given to all kinds of wonderful things and people. I really enjoy my real Sabbath too, where I actually rest and contemplate without repetitive messages and infantile manipulation by apathetic people who pretend to be my friends.

[_EdGoble]

Yes, Ed, you have a creationist burden. To support the stories of Adam and Eve and Noah as historical is a creationist burden, even though you rewrite them until they're unrecognizable. I'm sorry that you struggle with this, but you don't have to. Your irritation is misplaced. Your argument is with the "world". And I'm sure you're willing to take that on because it won't cost you much and it earns the admiration of your cohorts.

I do see you as a more thoughtful and substantial LDS person and that causes me sadness. You have a lot to lose. It is not for me to call on you to accept that loss for any reason. But you have tied yourself to a leadership that is unworthy of you. I don't see them as evil men, or as a conspiracy to take over the world. I equate them to a large insurance company with extensive real estate holdings that also provides social services and has a quaint system for obtaining revenue. It's hard for me to say if that means they're performing adequately for their shareholders, but it's perfectly clear to me that they don't have any superior knowledge or morality, in fact it's often quite the opposite. But most importantly, they're just another example of a gathering of humans who start imaging that they're more than that. It could be a bunch of Cubs fans, a union, a book club, a militia, it's all put together by people for people. It doesn't involve beings from other worlds or universes, hidden occult records, people with super powers, or any of that. It's people who believe crazy stuff for their own reasons and develop convoluted microcultures to sustain them. There's nothing there but people, Ed. There never was.

I have no struggles with anything. If I can't make my case in every point, it is not a point of anxiety for my religious soul. My soul is grounded. My dark night of the soul was 30 years ago as a 14 year old boy struggling with an anti-Mormon karate teacher who challenged my faith. I was an Internet Mormon quite a few years before there was an Internet.

I am proud to be associated with the Lord's anointed that are not only worthy of me, but are worthy of Him who sent them. My success or failure as an apologist is not reflective on the state of my soul. Sorry.

[_Themis]

Sorry but no. I think I explained it well but maybe this will help.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence

I thought you guys didn't consider wikipedia a good source. :)

I know some who feel that way, but I read some research on it and found it very comparable to other encyclopedias. As with anything we should be a little cautious.

[_Maksutov]

Yes, Ed, you have a creationist burden. To support the stories of Adam and Eve and Noah as historical is a creationist burden, even though you rewrite them until they're unrecognizable. I'm sorry that you struggle with this, but you don't have to. Your irritation is misplaced. Your argument is with the "world". And I'm sure you're willing to take that on because it won't cost you much and it earns the admiration of your cohorts.

I do see you as a more thoughtful and substantial LDS person and that causes me sadness. You have a lot to lose. It is not for me to call on you to accept that loss for any reason. But you have tied yourself to a leadership that is unworthy of you. I don't see them as evil men, or as a conspiracy to take over the world. I equate them to a large insurance company with extensive real estate holdings that also provides social services and has a quaint system for obtaining revenue. It's hard for me to say if that means they're performing adequately for their shareholders, but it's perfectly clear to me that they don't have any superior knowledge or morality, in fact it's often quite the opposite. But most importantly, they're just another example of a gathering of humans who start imaging that they're more than that. It could be a bunch of Cubs fans, a union, a book club, a militia, it's all put together by people for people. It doesn't involve beings from other worlds or universes, hidden occult records, people with super powers, or any of that. It's people who believe crazy stuff for their own reasons and develop convoluted microcultures to sustain them. There's nothing there but people, Ed. There never was.

I have no struggles with anything. If I can't make my case in every point, it is not a point of anxiety for my religious soul. My soul is grounded. My dark night of the soul was 30 years ago as a 14 year old boy struggling with an anti-Mormon karate teacher who challenged my faith. I was an Internet Mormon quite a few years before there was an Internet.

I am proud to be associated with the Lord's anointed that are not only worthy of me, but are worthy of Him who sent them. My success or failure as an apologist is not reflective on the state of my soul. Sorry.

The Lord's Anointed are men, Ed. Men. Humans. They're born, they die. They can call themselves Ascended Masters, Gods, Angels, the Justice League, but it doesn't make any difference. Their accomplishment is that they have risen high in a bureaucracy. That's just like any political or business leader. That's why they have to hire all kinds of consultants and attorneys, because they really don't have a clue. They have to get people to tell them what to do. They have their priesthood, they have the seer stones, they have the Holy of Holies, all the keys, but they can't figure it out. I am so not impressed. Your loyalty is tribal, it's a matter of identity. You would be a good soldier and follow a Boy King. I can admire that but it's a tragedy that it's so misplaced, because it is. You're like an Erwin Rommel of Mormonism. I don't think I need to spell that out but will if you require it.

I'm proud to be associated with people who made their reputations without deceiving people and exploiting the cultural conditioning of generations of innocent strangers. But these are people who don't control billion dollar corporations and pretend to have met Jesus. So my standards are somewhat different.