Native American use of Sacred Metal Tablets

[_tapirrider]

Haplo group X most likely originated in North Africa and diseninated from Israel. Israel has the most diversity of X. According to the Bible and Book of Mormon. The tribe of Manasseh started in Egypt North Africa and then went to Israel then Iran back to Israel then to North America it's a match

The Bible and Book of Mormon explains how haplo group X arrived in North America

The many Middle East cultural aspects are to many to ignore

Haplogroup x DID NOT disseminate from Israel. Such a claim is entirely without any credibility or backing at all. And the reason it did not is because there was no Israel at that time long before Adam and Eve. Likewise, there was no Abraham, Isaac or Jacob or Joseph or the Jaradites or Lehi 30,000 years ago or even 14,000 years ago. There was no Israel when Kennewick man was buried in North America before the time of Adam and Eve. All of those things written in the Bible and Book of Mormon were long after the time when haplogroup x2a was already in America.

The Bible and Book of Mormon DO NOT explain how haplogroup x2a arrived in North America. As a matter of fact, if one such as yourself tries to apply haplogroup x to those scriptures, it inevitably makes the scriptures out to be untrue because the evidence of science gives an entirely different and much older timeline and the scientific explanations are far more clear and realistic, backed up with archaeological and DNA studies. And not just human DNA David. DNA studies of dogs in the Americas correspond to the entry times of Paleo-Indians.

I have given you sources to what your own church says about trying to make claims based on DNA, I have given you sources from a very credible DNA scientist who is LDS and in good standing in the church (Dr. Perego is employed in the CES department of the church in Italy at this time). I have tried to explain your errors in your claims about haplogroup x2a'j in Iran. And it is as if nothing gets through to you.

The more you insist that haplogroup x is explained by the Bible and Book of Mormon, the more you are bringing attention to the conflict between scientific evidence and mythical stories in the Bible and fictional 19th century stories in the Book of Mormon. And the more you do this, the further you destroy hope that the scriptures might be true. What you are doing is reckless and harmful to the faith of folks who care about what is true but who want to believe that what they have been taught about the Book of Mormon is real. You went so far over the edge with me that you didn't even hesitate to give me a link to a group of whites who pretend to be Indians, and then you argued with me in the face of actual evidence that the Central Band of Cherokee are not Indians. Why did you do this David McKane?

As I have stated to you before, why isn't Moroni's promise enough for you? Why must you try to twist and distort science and make outright false claims? Why do you argue that there are Middle Eastern aspects in American Indians when there is not? If the Holy Ghost confirmed to you that the Book of Mormon is true, why are you so obsessed with trying to make science fit to it? Such efforts on your part only leads away from truth and places the credibility of the scriptures into doubt. Why do you do this David McKane?

[_Maksutov]

Why do you do this David McKane?

A fascinating question.

[_bomgeography]

Why do you do this David McKane?

A fascinating question.

It's a hobby of mine

Tapir according to science the global diversity of haplo group X emerged via Israel

“These Galilee Druze individuals represent the refugium of an ancestral group with high diversity and high frequency of haplogroup X, which was more prevalent in the region in antiquity, and from which the global diversity of X mtDNA haplogroup emerged.”
“We found that 39 of 41 haplogroup X Druze individuals were from the Galilee heights (Table S2), corresponding to 21.4% (39/182) of the samples from that region. Enrichment analysis revealed that both X1 and X2 were highly enriched in this region”

[Guest]

It's a hobby of mine

Tapir according to science the global diversity of haplo group X emerged via Israel

“These Galilee Druze individuals represent the refugium of an ancestral group with high diversity and high frequency of haplogroup X, which was more prevalent in the region in antiquity, and from which the global diversity of X mtDNA haplogroup emerged.”
“We found that 39 of 41 haplogroup X Druze individuals were from the Galilee heights (Table S2), corresponding to 21.4% (39/182) of the samples from that region. Enrichment analysis revealed that both X1 and X2 were highly enriched in this region”

Haplogroup x DID NOT emerge via Israel. David McKane, do you make it a hobby to pretend that the nation of Israel existed 30,000 years ago? Why do you try to claim "according to science" while disregarding timelines that are established and verified by science?

David, do you make it a hobby to make quotes without providing the source of those quotes? Here is the source for your quote.

The Druze: A Population Genetic Refugium of the Near East
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/articl ... 002105.PDF

Check out pdf page 6.

It should be noted that the estimated
coalescence times for the major mtDNA X subhaplogroups X1
and X2 are 42,900618,100 and 17,90062,900 respectively[4]. It
is striking that those different lineages (from the same parental
haplogroup) whose genetic divergence date back more than ten
thousand years would remain so concentrated within such a small
geographic region. Mutation rates for the mtDNA coding
region[39], are not consistent with the possibility that this number
of different coding region defined lineages within haplogroup X
could have resulted from the recent expansion of a monophyletic
clade within the past 1000 years. Rather this combination among
the Druze, of a large number of lineages, together with a high
frequency of the haplogroup in which these lineages are found,
suggests descent from an ancestral population, in which the X
haplogroup was more abundant than it is in the contemporary
Near East, and which reflects the prevailing Near East genetic
landscape at that time, antedating the establishment of the Druze
religion in 1017 A.C.E.

David, what that is saying is that a long time ago, before the Book of Mormon times, before the Bible times, before Adam and Eve, haplogroup x was more abundant in the Near East.

The issue here with your claims isn't that haplogroup x emerged from the Near East. It did. But the Near East 30,000 years ago wasn't Israel. You are trying to connect a Biblical nation to a geographical location at a time in the past when that nation didn't exist. Geographically, yes, hapologroup x emerged from the Near East. So what? It didn't emerge from Israel.

Read pdf page 7

It is thus likely that the
global diversity of this haplogroup evolved in the Near East and
adjacent regions of western Eurasia, during a long incubation
period coinciding with and following the most recent out of Africa
expansion as dated by mtDNA coalescence simulations[44]. The
Druze population of the Galilee represents a contemporary
refugium of this past genetic landscape.

That does not help the Book of Mormon or the Bible at all. David McKane, you have found a scientific source that clearly explains haplogroup x origin that dates before the time of the Biblical creation of the earth, before the time of Adam and before the time of Lehi. And you ignorantly claim it is evidence to support the Book of Mormon. Why do you do this?

[_Lemmie]

Tapir according to science the global diversity of haplo group X emerged via Israel

David McKane, did you even read what tapirrider wrote?

Haplogroup x DID NOT disseminate from Israel. Such a claim is entirely without any credibility or backing at all. And the reason it did not is because there was no Israel at that time long before Adam and Eve. Likewise, there was no Abraham, Isaac or Jacob or Joseph or the Jaradites or Lehi 30,000 years ago or even 14,000 years ago. There was no Israel when Kennewick man was buried in North America before the time of Adam and Eve. All of those things written in the Bible and Book of Mormon were long after the time when haplogroup x2a was already in America.

The Bible and Book of Mormon DO NOT explain how haplogroup x2a arrived in North America. As a matter of fact, if one such as yourself tries to apply haplogroup x to those scriptures, it inevitably makes the scriptures out to be untrue because the evidence of science gives an entirely different and much older timeline and the scientific explanations are far more clear and realistic, backed up with archaeological and DNA studies....

The more you insist that haplogroup x is explained by the Bible and Book of Mormon, the more you are bringing attention to the conflict between scientific evidence and mythical stories in the Bible and fictional 19th century stories in the Book of Mormon....

That nonsense, non-attributed quote you followed your comment with is just another cherry-picked blurb that you don't understand in the slightest.

[_Maksutov]

Tapir according to science the global diversity of haplo group X emerged via Israel

David McKane, did you even read what tapirrider wrote?

Haplogroup x DID NOT disseminate from Israel. Such a claim is entirely without any credibility or backing at all. And the reason it did not is because there was no Israel at that time long before Adam and Eve. Likewise, there was no Abraham, Isaac or Jacob or Joseph or the Jaradites or Lehi 30,000 years ago or even 14,000 years ago. There was no Israel when Kennewick man was buried in North America before the time of Adam and Eve. All of those things written in the Bible and Book of Mormon were long after the time when haplogroup x2a was already in America.

The Bible and Book of Mormon DO NOT explain how haplogroup x2a arrived in North America. As a matter of fact, if one such as yourself tries to apply haplogroup x to those scriptures, it inevitably makes the scriptures out to be untrue because the evidence of science gives an entirely different and much older timeline and the scientific explanations are far more clear and realistic, backed up with archaeological and DNA studies....

The more you insist that haplogroup x is explained by the Bible and Book of Mormon, the more you are bringing attention to the conflict between scientific evidence and mythical stories in the Bible and fictional 19th century stories in the Book of Mormon....

That nonsense, non-attributed quote you followed your comment with is just another cherry-picked blurb that you don't understand in the slightest.

What you're receiving, Lemmie, is the equivalent of a testimony, again and again. It's almost like a tic. Definitely pathological, in my opinion. Or maybe it's a maladaptation, a sort of Mormon hedgehog maneuver. When questioned the believer lapses into repeating a mantra to stop doubt and cognition in general. A pretentious way to stick your fingers in your ears and say "Lalala can't hear you." Works for lots of other cults...

[_Themis]

The issue here with your claims isn't that haplogroup x emerged from the Near East. It did. But the Near East 30,000 years ago wasn't Israel. You are trying to connect a Biblical nation to a geographical location at a time in the past when that nation didn't exist. Geographically, yes, hapologroup x emerged from the Near East. So what? It didn't emerge from Israel.

He is a biblical literalist. They like science so much they will use any of it if they think it supports what they want to believe, but just as easily dismiss any of it that does not even though it makes no sense. The real problem here is he doesn't believe the scientific knowledge of dating not just DNA, but all dating. He has no objective argument, but just an ignorant religious belief to ignore what he doesn't like. This is why he will spend no time educating himself on the issue, and will continue to abuse science to promote his beliefs while at the same time pretend he doesn't hear you guys about dating and DNA.

[_Lemmie]

Although discussing anything with David McKane a.k.a. bomgeography is as futile as DrW has warned, I do enjoy reading up on some of the topics. I hope Simon Southerton doesn't mind, I'd like to quote a piece from one of his blog entries on this topic that is extremely applicable. I know it's not new, but it remains applicable even years later in trying to understand the illogicality of approaches such as McKane's:

I recently questioned Rodney Meldrum’s claims that the presence of the X lineage in Native Americans represents a genetic link with Israel in light of the evidence I described above. He responded saying:

“…I have read Ugo Perego's paper in Current Biology … and understand where he is coming from, although when it comes to the dating, I am in disagreement with him based on scriptural timelines as I understand them.”

 “My impression is that you believe I am 'cherry-picking' evidence I like and rejecting out of hand all other information. Simon, this is not the case. I am rejecting portions of theories that I feel cannot be reconsiled (sic) with the revealed word of the Lord in the scriptures.” 
— Rodney Meldrum 

Ugo Perego is a Mormon scientist who has published several important papers on the molecular genealogy of Native Americans. Perego disagrees with the way Meldrum has interpreted his research findings. Like all other experts in the field Perego doesn't believe that the X lineage arrived recently in the Americas. In spite of his claim that he isn’t, Rodney Meldrum (who is not a scientist) is most definitely cherry picking the scientific evidence. Consider these words in the introduction to Rodney's book.

"My position as the author of this work is that when there is an inferred conflict between scientific theories and scriptural truths, the scriptures will always be demonstrated true, and the theories of men, put forward through science, will eventually conform to the truths of the gospel, not the other way around. Of course error can be made in the interpretation of scripture; however when they (the Scriptures) are clear and supported by prophetic or revelatory understanding, and if they cannot be reconciled with the current theories of science, then it should be understood that eventually the scientific theories will be altered to comply with God’s truth, even if that means waiting until the next life. The theories (beliefs) of men that don’t harmonize with the truths (facts) of God are in error and are subject to alteration."  
— Rodney Meldrum, 2009

Here, Meldrum admits that his conclusion is fixed from the outset. He is merely gathering facts that suite his purposes. Anyone with these views in mind will think they have full license to dismiss out of hand any scientific ideas that challenge their beliefs.

http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com.au/ ... neage.html

David McKane just takes it to an even more bizarre level in that he gathers not only facts to suit his purposes, but also fiction.

What you're receiving, Lemmie, is the equivalent of a testimony, again and again. It's almost like a tic. Definitely pathological, in my opinion. Or maybe it's a maladaptation, a sort of Mormon hedgehog maneuver.

Sounds about right!!

[_bomgeography]

If I'm wrong nothing bad happens when I die. If god does not exist life as we know it is meaningless from a big picture point of view. Nobody will care a hundred years from now when I or yourself pass away. But If myself and millions of believers are right the consequences last forever. Laugh all you want but pray that you are right.

[_Maksutov]

If I'm wrong nothing bad happens when I die. If god does not exist life as we know it is meaningless from a big picture point of view. Nobody will care a hundred years from now when I or yourself pass away. But If myself and millions of believers are right the consequences last forever. Laugh all you want but pray that you are right.

According to Jack Chick, you're going to burn in hell for billions of years. Laugh all you want but pray that you are right.

See how much religion adds to the discussion? Nothing.