Native American and Children of Israel Fiery Flying Serpents

[_tapirrider]

Mormoni 10 proves everything.

Everything? Including your claims? There is no need for your so-called research and wild claims if Moroni 10:3-5 works for you.

[_Lemmie]

You guys are silly in this connection it is in fiery flying serpents not DNA. But DNA is impressive.

Fiery flying serpents in the RECORD of Moses is thought to be a specific adder in the Middle East. The lamanites took the fast striking adder as literal. Interesting I know. And yes Mormoni 10 proves everything.

The scriptures give several clues, which indicate that it most likely belonged to the deadly saw-scale viper family, considered by many scientists to be "the world's most dangerous snake."

There are at least ten clues in the scriptures to help identify the serpent lifted up in the wilderness. Let us consider each of them.
2.1 Inhabit Arava Valley. At the time of Moses the serpent in question inhabited the Arava Valley. While it is not an absolute requirement, one would expect the serpent to still inhabit that area today.

2.2 Prefer Rocky Terrain. Why did the Israelites only run into these serpents during the difficult journey through the rocky Arava valley area? They had no such problems in the sandy valley areas of the Sinai where the Israelites probably camped during much of their travels. This suggests a snake which prefers rocky terrain.

2.3 Deadly poisonous. The venom from the serpent was apparently extremely poisonous because it caused so many deaths, and apparently needed miraculous intervention to prevent death.

2.4 Extremely dangerous. Those who study serpents make a distinction between "deadly" and "dangerous." Deadly refers to how poisonous the venom is, whereas dangerous means that the snake actually causes many fatalities every year. Most of the world's snakes with the most deadly venom are not classified as the world's most dangerous snakes. Australia is home to several snakes with the most deadly venom in the world. The aggressive Inland Taipan is considered to be the most "deadly snake" in the world, but it is found in such remote areas of Australia that bites and fatalities from this snake are rare. Other Australian snakes frequent populated areas but are secretive or only inject venom in about 10% of their bites. These facts plus the miracle of modern treatments limit fatalities in Australia from snake bite to about five per year.[4]

david McKane, could you please attribute the parts of the above post that were written by someone else? You are plagiarizing.

[_Lemmie]

But DNA is impressive

No, it's not. You are repeating yourself, McKane. From earlier:

Did you read the article quoted above?
[Does Mitochondrial Haplogroup X Indicate Ancient Trans-Atlantic Migration to the Americas? A Critical Re-Evaluation, Jennifer A. Raff & Deborah A. Bolnick (2015)
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1 ... ccess=true ]

It's been presented to you many times, it is published in a peer-reviewed journal by a legitimate academic researcher, and represents a tremendous amount of research.

... [E]xplain why your statements, which NO ONE in the academic community interested in these topics agrees with, should be given any weight. Simply re-stating them with no support, inappropriate or missing attributions, and with missing context is nonsensical.

[_bomgeography]

The extra information was from Robert millet

[_Lemmie]

The extra information was from Robert millet

Actually there's a little more to it than that. The full context of your excerpt actually associates the "fiery serpent" story with serpent worship in Mesoamerica. The full reference:

What Fiery Flying Serpent Symbolized Christ?
by Ronald P. Millett and John P. Pratt.

Reprinted from Meridian Magazine (June. 9, 2000)
©2000 by Ronald P. Millett. All rights Reserved.

And from within the article, after the snake characteristics you excerpted:

The flying serpent symbolism also brings to mind the feathered serpent, Quetzalcoatl, the ancient American symbol of the white and bearded god who visited the Americas in the first century AD[28]

[28]Wallace E. Hunt, Jr., "Moses' Brazen Serpent as It Relates to Serpent Worship in Mesoamerica," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, Vol. 2, No. 2, p.121.
B. H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God, Vol.3, p.43-46."It is probable that Quetzalcohuatl whose proper name signifies "feathered serpent," was so called after the brazen serpent which Moses lifted up in the wilderness...."

From your blog entry, given in your OP, you go a different way with Millet's work:

Pre Columbian Mississippian artifacts and Native American legend help confirm the teaching of Nephi about the Children of Israel and the fiery serpents.

So how does an association with a legend about a snake "confirm" anything about your Heartland hypothesis if the same information is also used to support the Mesoamerican hypothesis?

You also excerpt from Mooney to support your idea:

Pre Columbian Mississippian artifacts and Native American legend help confirm the teaching of Nephi about the Children of Israel and the fiery serpents.

According to Cherokee legend if Uktena a fiery horned serpent, is not appeased the serpent will fly around in the shape of fire and attack tribe members.

The problem is that again, by excerpting, you missed the larger picture. Mooney describes how dangerous the snake is in this myth, but also notes that the Cherokee legend venerates the Uktena, and considers it a great treasure:

...the Uktena is a great snake...[with] a bright blazing crest like a diamond on its forehead.... The blazing diamond is called Ulun'suti -- "Transparent" -- and he who can win it may become the greatest wonder worker of the tribe.

Whoever owns the Ulun'suti is sure of success in hunting, love, rainmaking, and every other business, but its great use is in life prophecy. When it is consulted for this purpose the future is seen....

(From Myths of the Cherokee by James Mooney,
Nineteenth Annual Report of the Bureau of American Ethnology 1897-98, Part I. [1900])

The actual Cherokee legend only matches up with the story in Nephi in one way: each has a dangerous snake. There is nothing unique or meaningful in that, and certainly nothing that warrants using it to support your Book of Mormon location ideas.

[_Lemmie]

McKane, you have another problem with your references on this particular topic.

To support your theory you invoke Mississippian artifacts:

Pre Columbian Mississippian artifacts and Native American legend help confirm the teaching of Nephi about the Children of Israel and the fiery serpents.

You then post an unattributed picture, which you caption in support of your idea as: "Mississippian depictions of flying serpents":


Here's the problem. You took that from the uci.edu site, a page titled "The Southeast Ceremonial Complex: Artifacts from the Moundbuilders," which contained a collection of pictures.

If you had looked a little more carefully, you would have realized your picture was actually a single sketch from a section of a schematic in support of a Master's Thesis, which "focuses on the stylistic parameters of the Winged serpent theme," in particular the winged serpents found on artifacts from the Mississippian site of Moundville on the Black Warrior River in Alabama.

The Mississippian artifacts from this site are dated to three periods, as is noted in the Master's Thesis referenced above:

The Moundville I phase: AD. 1050-1250.
...the Moundville II phase, AD. 1250-1400,
[and the] Moundville III, AD. 1400—1550.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us

Some further background about the image you used:

The origin of the Great Serpent symbol derives from the ancient Mississippian culture of North America, the culture of the Mound Builders. The Mound Builders associated great mystical value to the serpent. Some Indian tribes including the Creek, Choctaw, Cherokee, Seminole and Chickasaw still retain some elements of the Mississippi culture. Their sacred rites, myths and symbols and are presumed to descend from the Mississippians.
https://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/nat ... symbol.htm

[bolding added by me.]

So how does a symbol that originated during the Mississippian era, which arose after Book of Mormon times, lend any support to your thesis that Nephi got his story from Isreal?

[I credit grindael entirely for emphasizing that looking at original sources, in situ if possible, always gives a more complete story.]

[_Maksutov]

The extra information was from Robert millet

Do you mean Ronald Millet? Robert is a Mormon apologist/BYU professor. Not strong on details, are you?

[_bomgeography]

McKane, you have another problem with your references on this particular topic.

To support your theory you invoke Mississippian artifacts:

Pre Columbian Mississippian artifacts and Native American legend help confirm the teaching of Nephi about the Children of Israel and the fiery serpents.

You then post an unattributed picture, which you caption in support of your idea as: "Mississippian depictions of flying serpents":


Here's the problem. You took that from the uci.edu site, a page titled "The Southeast Ceremonial Complex: Artifacts from the Moundbuilders," which contained a collection of pictures.

If you had looked a little more carefully, you would have realized your picture was actually a single sketch from a section of a schematic in support of a Master's Thesis, which "focuses on the stylistic parameters of the Winged serpent theme," in particular the winged serpents found on artifacts from the Mississippian site of Moundville on the Black Warrior River in Alabama.

The Mississippian artifacts from this site are dated to three periods, as is noted in the Master's Thesis referenced above:

The Moundville I phase: AD. 1050-1250.
...the Moundville II phase, AD. 1250-1400,
[and the] Moundville III, AD. 1400—1550.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us

Some further background about the image you used:

The origin of the Great Serpent symbol derives from the ancient Mississippian culture of North America, the culture of the Mound Builders. The Mound Builders associated great mystical value to the serpent. Some Indian tribes including the Creek, Choctaw, Cherokee, Seminole and Chickasaw still retain some elements of the Mississippi culture. Their sacred rites, myths and symbols and are presumed to descend from the Mississippians.
https://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/nat ... symbol.htm

[bolding added by me.]

So how does a symbol that originated during the Mississippian era, which arose after Book of Mormon times, lend any support to your thesis that Nephi got his story from Isreal?

[I credit grindael entirely for emphasizing that looking at original sources, in situ if possible, always gives a more complete story.]

If the flying serpent dated before the Book of Mormon it would be a problem. But since it is dated after the a Book of Mormon it shows that it morphed from a small aspect as taught by Nephi to become a major believe adopted by the Lamanites.

[Guest]

If the flying serpent dated before the Book of Mormon it would be a problem. But since it is dated after the a Book of Mormon it shows that it morphed from a small aspect as taught by Nephi to become a major believe adopted by the Lamanites.

No. "Originated during" does not equate to "morphed from." Look up the history of the picture you cherry-picked. Do some research on the underwater/supernatural origins of the motif--your surface comparison is naïve and facile, rendering your interpretation meaningless.

Even if they were the same story, which they are not, you cannot use a snake found in the heartland to support your model without admitting a snake found in Mesoamerica supports the Mesoamerican model, thereby canceling out your argument. If you properly used and attributed the entire article from which you plagiarized you would have seen this.

But the bigger problem is that you have two entirely different snake stories that are not the same. You cannot compare a cautionary tale of 'bad deadly snake that kills' with a supernatural tale of 'venerated snake that imbues mystical powers to its owner' and assume just because each has a snake the stories are the same.

You need to do actual research instead of cherry-picking things that 'look' the same.

Also please stop plagiarizing. Even pictures should properly be attributed.

It's also noted that rather than support every single assertion you've made in this thread, when errors are pointed out you shift to some other interpretation or bring in some other rationale. In addition to the point that your assertions are not researched or accurate to begin with, this strategy makes your conclusions look even more weak and insupportable than they already are.

[_tapirrider]

If the flying serpent dated before the Book of Mormon it would be a problem. But since it is dated after the a Book of Mormon it shows that it morphed from a small aspect as taught by Nephi to become a major believe adopted by the Lamanites.

David, there is a problem then. The flying serpent in the Americas does date before the Book of Mormon. See The Olmec World: Ritual and Rulership by Michael D. Coe, 1995, Page 84 for more on the pre-Book of Mormon Olmec feathered serpent.

But why should that be a problem for you David McKane? Radiocarbon dating and Kennewick Man don't seem to be a problem for you, why this flying serpent?