Native American use of Sacred Metal Tablets

[_Xenophon]

Ed, I appreciate your thoughts. I will say I am not going to address all of what you wrote, purely because I believe we will just go around and around without really getting anywhere. Thank you for taking the time to share though, I always enjoy seeing lots of different perspectives. I do want to address a few things though:

I can't agree with you that people that leave Mormonism having once been converted, and having a certain amount of light, are in the same state as people that never had that light, who weren't supposed to ever get that level of light in mortality. The people from whom the light is withheld are in that state for a deliberate reason that the Lord knows about their mortal mission that would necessitate it. The people that leave Mormonism have broken covenants, and are responsible for that, and can never be in the same position as those who never made them, and never knew that level of light.

The main point of my arguing that you don't know about the fate or experience of those that left is precisely that, you don't know, you just have an idea. You claim to believe in a Christ that has full knowledge of our intents and hearts and that are judgement will be according to how he sees us taking upon his mantle ("That means that he has viewed your behavior and your intent and judged it..." your words). All I am suggesting is that you as an outsider between this relationship between the person and Christ CANNOT know their heart.

This is why I think it a bit insensitive (and premature) to cast the judgement you have. As someone so sure of your relationship with Christ, it seems odd that you would try to denounce someone else's just because it doesn't fit your narrative.

I also don't really see anyone here "making excuses" for their "state" (state of what?, I don't know what you mean here). All of the stories I have read on this site, and the former Mormons I have known in real life have gone through long, arduous journeys that often cost them considerable time, money, relationships and a fair bit of suffering. They all have ended up in drastically different positions; atheist to Evangelical to Buddhist. I feel perhaps one of the reasons you may receive some hostility on this board is because you are so flippant in your regard to their thoughts and ideas, i.e. your comparison between them and alcoholics (yes I know some of the members of the board are just asses, but most are not).

I will be happy to let you have the last word in this, I believe I have said my peace.

[_Themis]

Having respect for someones beliefs does not mean they have to agree that they are right or rational Ed.

[_Xenophon]

Having respect for someones beliefs does not mean they have to agree that they are right or rational Ed.

The TL:DR of my last post I suppose. Thanks for the poignant summation.

[_Themis]

They are unwilling to endure or have patience for answers and proof.

Really? I keep believing when I knew I didn't know. I stopped when I had enough evidence available to be considered proof Joseph was making it up. I don't know why you think it a good trait to endure with a set of beliefs given you by your tribe, when there are so many other ones out there. They all like to give different answers then yours. Is it a trait that God will reward a celestial life for everyone who endures in their particular religion's claims no matter how illogical? Or is it just the one you think is the right one?

[_Themis]

Eternal salvation is a different matter entirely, and demands a different approach than the one you are all demanding from people of faith. Because it is indeed the one exception to where proof can be demanded. Because proof cannot be demanded of this thing by its nature, because of the way God has structured it, and the rules that he has put in place for it.

God didn't tell you this. You have never meet him. Some human like Joseph Smith did. Is this claim not also the main trait of the conman who wants people to believe what he tells them? So many religious leaders tell their adherents things like this. How is having faith in the wrong one bad and having faith in the right one, which you have no idea is the right one, good?

[_EdGoble]

That doesn't mean that it needs to give up fundamental things...

1 Cor 15:21
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Hmmm. No more death brought by Adam since it reigned previous to Adam. So no foundation for a need for the resurrection of JC. Oh well, just another non fundamental not essential for our salvation.

that's another one where I think that a modification on the typical assumption is in order. Since, the atonement is active (retro-active) for people before the atonement was enacted, and the fall is just as retro-active as to its effects.

[_EdGoble]

The last thing I see Mormonism as is "a branch of inquiry", Ed. Nor do I think that Mormonism can be defined by one person or one group--it has grown, split, mutated far beyond that.

If Mormon beliefs/doctrine are something can be created or at least modified through a bottom up sort of emergent process, than the traditional structure of authority should be challenged. I don't see you doing that, though.

Mormonism, and Joseph Smith are not sui generis. There are many examples of similar groups, texts, narratives and resulting apologetic institutions and dynamics that the Mormon sample can be compared with. When Smith and his works are compared with others it is clear that they are products of his imagination. You can claim that his imagination was inspired, but it still reduces him to another creative person who started a religion. Many have claimed to talk to God, many have had witnesses, many have believers who have given their all for them. It is evidence of emotion-driven behavior that can be seen in many forms throughout the world. No special pleading or circular logic, no lifetime dedication to a preconceived belief required.

The authority doesn't need to be challenged. The authority just needs to let go of the thing called "official doctrine" when it comes to issues that are non-salvational, and allow theology to emerge naturally among the intellectuals that care about such things, so that the theology can naturally evolve.

They actually are unique from the Mormon perspective because Mormons have no place else to turn for authority. Its easy enough for a splinter group to emerge from protestantism when people disagree. Mormonism is something else where if someone disagrees with the theology but values the authority, then they have to sort of either go into the closet, or try to not cause a lot of noise to bring attention to themselves.

[_EdGoble]

God didn't tell you this. You have never meet him. Some human like Joseph Smith did. Is this claim not also the main trait of the conman who wants people to believe what he tells them? So many religious leaders tell their adherents things like this. How is having faith in the wrong one bad and having faith in the right one, which you have no idea is the right one, good?

You can challenge my assertions, but you don't know what God has told me and what he has not, and to be frank, even if someone did meet God you would never know it. That is not your position to know, which shows the flaw in your own position, that you can't prove that something wasn't told to me, because you don't have evidence that it did not. What you only can know is what you perceive, and your perceptions are only based on your own subjective assumptions and foolish fault finding with the Lord's anointed where you cast aspersions like "conman" and so forth. I can challenge you just as much to say that you did not live the life of Joseph Smith so you are not in a position to judge on these points on the shaky ground on which you base your casting of aspersions, and you most certainly did not meet God yourself to know that he is a conman. All you have is the historical evidence before you that you can subjectively interpret yourself to come to your subjective judgement of "conman." You can go off of the words of traitors like William Law that accused him of such things, or you can go off the words of people like Brigham Young that sang all the time, "Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah." You can interpret the thing about marriage to 14 year old girls as badly or as good as you wish to. The fact of the matter is that they were real marriages in the eyes of Jehovah, not adulterous arrangements.

So, let me say I thank God for the man Joseph Smith that pointed me to the way that I could know how to seek to commune with God myself in his own time to know what Joseph knew, and to experience what he experienced myself. Praise to the man who led the way for me to be able to eventually meet God. I am not limited by his failings, and I'm not fazed by the accusations against him. I am enabled to progress by his accomplishments.

[_spotlight]

Since, the atonement is active (retro-active) for people before the atonement was enacted, and the fall is just as retro-active as to its effects.

Who was resurrected per LDS beliefs prior to JC?
Anyways you say that the fall applies to beings that lived prior to Adam, so then all of life prior to Adam gets a resurrection. But according to LDS beliefs even the earth itself gets a resurrection. Conservation of mass tells me someone or something is going to be shorted in the resurrection.

[_EdGoble]

Really? I keep believing when I knew I didn't know. I stopped when I had enough evidence available to be considered proof Joseph was making it up. I don't know why you think it a good trait to endure with a set of beliefs given you by your tribe, when there are so many other ones out there. They all like to give different answers then yours. Is it a trait that God will reward a celestial life for everyone who endures in their particular religion's claims no matter how illogical? Or is it just the one you think is the right one?

Yes. You actually did stop, with all due respect, because you allowed this type of thing to overcome you instead of waiting it out and sticking with it.